sam07
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Post by sam07 on Nov 27, 2017 6:19:39 GMT -7
Exactly. Usually when a chain is too tight, the trans will whine. If loosening the chain doesn’t solve anything then it’s internal. Can an overly tight chain cause the whining problem and make it permanent? My chains only ever been nipped up by yam dealership themselves. Do all 10's whine like this eventually? Or are you saying only some are doing it? That’s what the manual warns. |
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Kameo
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Post by Kameo on Nov 27, 2017 13:41:54 GMT -7
Can an overly tight chain cause the whining problem and make it permanent? My chains only ever been nipped up by yam dealership themselves. Do all 10's whine like this eventually? Or are you saying only some are doing it? That’s what the manual warns. This is all I've found; "A drive chain that is too tight will overload the engine and other vital parts, and one that is too loose......" "Improper drive chain slack will overload the engine as well as other parts of the motorcycle and can lead to chain slippage or breakage...." Are you therefore suggesting overloading the engine by way of an overly tight chain causes the bike to develop a permanent whining -or- I've missed something in the manual? Can you link the manual reference point, page number, etc |
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sam07
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Post by sam07 on Nov 27, 2017 13:54:15 GMT -7
8-25 Owners manual  |
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Kameo
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Post by Kameo on Nov 27, 2017 14:06:22 GMT -7
Ok yeh....subjective though.
What has yamaha said on the topic of your whining bike?
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Post by evitzee on Nov 27, 2017 14:19:35 GMT -7
I think there is a bit of hysteria here. I took a nice, long ride today, but after putting in earplugs and wearing a high quality full face helmet I don't see how anyone can hear a whine from the chain or anywhere else. I tried to see if I could anything but at speeds over 40 mph the most sound you get is wind noise, I seriously can't hear much engine sound other than a muted thrush, and I have good hearing. I adjust the chain on a paddock stand to Yamaha's spec, and that's it. If you can actually pick out a whining sound you either have Superman type hearing, have a real serious problem, or are just imagining an errant sound. I believe people are overworking and over thinking this.
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Kameo
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Post by Kameo on Nov 27, 2017 14:38:42 GMT -7
I think there is a bit of hysteria here. I took a nice, long ride today, but after putting in earplugs and wearing a high quality full face helmet I don't see how anyone can hear a whine from the chain or anywhere else. I tried to see if I could anything but at speeds over 40 mph the most sound you get is wind noise, I seriously can't hear much engine sound other than a muted thrush, and I have good hearing. I adjust the chain on a paddock stand to Yamaha's spec, and that's it. If you can actually pick out a whining sound you either have Superman type hearing, have a real serious problem, or are just imagining an errant sound. I believe people are overworking and over thinking this. No hysteria, just digging and informing... At present yamaha have inspected and will be replacing; Cam tensioner - defective Drive chain - split o-rings on innner side of chain only No superman type hearing is necessary to experience these sounds on my bike. There is no over thinking if a problem develops without a known cause. I started this thread with a question and now after a week or so of digging yamaha are tending to my bikes issues. |
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sam07
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Post by sam07 on Nov 28, 2017 7:17:59 GMT -7
I loosened the chain to 1.5 inches at the tightest spot and the whine is less noticeable.
My super human powers as a technician for 25 years (sarcasm) allow me hear it coming off the highway if I pull the clutch in and coast to a stop. The whine is gone around town. A big plus is the trans downshifts a lot smoother.
Conclusion - definitely believe 1 inch is way to tight.
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Kameo
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Post by Kameo on Nov 29, 2017 13:55:41 GMT -7
I loosened the chain to 1.5 inches at the tightest spot and the whine is less noticeable. My super human powers as a technician for 25 years (sarcasm) allow me hear it coming off the highway if I pull the clutch in and coast to a stop. The whine is gone around town. A big plus is the trans downshifts a lot smoother. Conclusion - definitely believe 1 inch is way to tight. Especially if it's being measured as depicted in the manual(top of chain - bottom of chain) 1.5inches/3.81cm's of slack measured from a single point seems to be where it's at for the 10. |
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Kameo
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Post by Kameo on Dec 10, 2017 19:27:04 GMT -7
Ok so I've just had a new chain and cam tensioner installed under warranty.
It's too early to say but after riding 40km's home I'm not sure it's done much.
I will report back after riding her for a bit...
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Kameo
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Post by Kameo on Dec 12, 2017 22:28:16 GMT -7
So I guess it’s not the chain or the cam tensioner...?
Any mechs here with any ideas on what else could be causing the noise(video on my original post)and O-ring damage...?
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jjsc6
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Post by jjsc6 on Dec 13, 2017 5:32:14 GMT -7
Honestly, my first thought on the O rings when you first posted was that perhaps the alignment of the wheel was not right and the chains had some side pressure on it not being straight. I really can't imagine what else would cause it unless it had a lot of miles and was just never lubed, which I'm sure is not the case.
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Post by stoltecmoto on Dec 13, 2017 5:32:15 GMT -7
The chain's o-ring issue is unrelated tot he cam chain tensioner (CCT). The CCT tensions the timing chain inside the engine. The drive chain doesn't interface with that. Torn o-rings occur as a result of manufacturing defects or improper care (cleaning, lubing, alighnment). When you measure chain slack, be sure to rotate the wheel until you find the TIGHTEST spot in the chain. Rotate, check slack. Rotate, check slack. Repeat until you find the tightest spot. After you do it a few times, it only takes a few seconds. If you measure willy nilly, you run the risk of adjusting at a loose spot which would make the tight spot too tight. Chain slack is always measured center to center (or bottom to bottom, top to top, whichever you prefer). On the -10, I've found 25-30 mm to be ideal when measured on a paddock stand; measuring on the side stand will equate to more slack. Running over ~35 mm of slack gives a really good clatter/clunk when leaving a stop. More can also cause chain slap, which over time, can erode the swingarm. It is worth mentioning that the numbers I mentioned are with an extra link in the chain. Therefore, the chain is longer and these numbers can be reduced by 1-2 mm on a standard length chain if you're into splitting hairs. Ever wonder how the manufacturer picks chain slack measurements? Fancy calculations and testing? Nope! Chain tension changes as the wheel travels through it's natural arc of suspension travel. You'll need a bit of slack in the chain when the chain is at its tightest. This occurs when the axle, swingarm pivot, and countershaft sprocket are aligned. As far as the noise the OP is hearing... Did you properly align the chain? Assuming the factory wheel spacers are installed correctly and the chain is aligned perfectly, the drive chain will run pretty quiet when lubed. If the spacers are installed incorrectly, the wheel is out of alignment, and/or the chain is dirty, noise starts to increase. Assuming the adjustment marks on the swingarm are accurate would be folly. See here: www.motorcyclistonline.com/g00/how-to/how-to-check-front-and-rear-motorcycle-wheel-alignment-mc-garage-tech-tips?i10c.encReferrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8%3DOr, if you're feeling saucy and like to do things quickly, I HIGHLY recommend this: As far as transmission noise, you'll likely get some whining in the higher gears where you can hear it due to the output shaft's speed. Unlike a cage's transmission, a motorcycle's gears are straight cut, not helical. Straight cut gears, like those in the uber-sweet open class rally cars, emit a natural whine. Most people can't discern the noise with earplugs over the wind, engine, and exhaust noise. But the FZ-09 has a loud sixth gear that has garnered many comments. In the spirit of full disclosure, Yamaha did recall the early 2015 R1's due to transmission issues: www.cycleworld.com/2015/12/15/recall-roster-all-2015-yamaha-yzf-r1-sportbike-motorcycles-gearbox-issueIt's unlikely that this is your issue, so I wouldn't worry much. Only posting that link for educational purposes... |
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Kameo
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Post by Kameo on Dec 18, 2017 22:31:50 GMT -7
Chains cleaned every 800km's and lubed every 2-300km's.
The chain has only ever been adjusted by Yamaha dealerships.
The only water it's ever seen is when washed, almost zero wet riding.
Garaged and always kept tidy.
Broken in as per manual.
All by the book?
As recommended by the yamaha dealership.....
Cleaned with Motul Chain Cleaner + soft rag - no brushes
Lubed with Motul Factory Lube
Same O-Ring problem occurred on my previous bike MT-07 - 20 or so split o-rings but only on the inner side of chain(just like my MT-10 inner side only), none on the outside - changed under warranty as well.
My bike wines in all gears, rev'ing up, rev'ing down and loudest in 3rd. Wining started at around 7,000km's on the ODO.
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Post by stoltecmoto on Dec 19, 2017 5:49:46 GMT -7
If this happened on your previous bike and both were serviced by the same dealer, I'd check the alignment. We've seen this happen from time to time, but it's a rarity on modern o-ring chains...
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jjsc6
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Post by jjsc6 on Dec 19, 2017 5:52:12 GMT -7
The chain's o-ring issue is unrelated tot he cam chain tensioner (CCT). The CCT tensions the timing chain inside the engine. The drive chain doesn't interface with that. Torn o-rings occur as a result of manufacturing defects or improper care (cleaning, lubing, alighnment). When you measure chain slack, be sure to rotate the wheel until you find the TIGHTEST spot in the chain. Rotate, check slack. Rotate, check slack. Repeat until you find the tightest spot. After you do it a few times, it only takes a few seconds. If you measure willy nilly, you run the risk of adjusting at a loose spot which would make the tight spot too tight. Chain slack is always measured center to center (or bottom to bottom, top to top, whichever you prefer). On the -10, I've found 25-30 mm to be ideal when measured on a paddock stand; measuring on the side stand will equate to more slack. Running over ~35 mm of slack gives a really good clatter/clunk when leaving a stop. More can also cause chain slap, which over time, can erode the swingarm. It is worth mentioning that the numbers I mentioned are with an extra link in the chain. Therefore, the chain is longer and these numbers can be reduced by 1-2 mm on a standard length chain if you're into splitting hairs. Ever wonder how the manufacturer picks chain slack measurements? Fancy calculations and testing? Nope! Chain tension changes as the wheel travels through it's natural arc of suspension travel. You'll need a bit of slack in the chain when the chain is at its tightest. This occurs when the axle, swingarm pivot, and countershaft sprocket are aligned. As far as the noise the OP is hearing... Did you properly align the chain? Assuming the factory wheel spacers are installed correctly and the chain is aligned perfectly, the drive chain will run pretty quiet when lubed. If the spacers are installed incorrectly, the wheel is out of alignment, and/or the chain is dirty, noise starts to increase. Assuming the adjustment marks on the swingarm are accurate would be folly. See here: www.motorcyclistonline.com/g00/how-to/how-to-check-front-and-rear-motorcycle-wheel-alignment-mc-garage-tech-tips?i10c.encReferrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8%3DOr, if you're feeling saucy and like to do things quickly, I HIGHLY recommend this: As far as transmission noise, you'll likely get some whining in the higher gears where you can hear it due to the output shaft's speed. Unlike a cage's transmission, a motorcycle's gears are straight cut, not helical. Straight cut gears, like those in the uber-sweet open class rally cars, emit a natural whine. Most people can't discern the noise with earplugs over the wind, engine, and exhaust noise. But the FZ-09 has a loud sixth gear that has garnered many comments. In the spirit of full disclosure, Yamaha did recall the early 2015 R1's due to transmission issues: www.cycleworld.com/2015/12/15/recall-roster-all-2015-yamaha-yzf-r1-sportbike-motorcycles-gearbox-issueIt's unlikely that this is your issue, so I wouldn't worry much. Only posting that link for educational purposes... Are you sure there is more slack on the side stand? It would be the first bike I've ever seen that way. Every bike I've had has more slack on a center stand/paddock stand because the swing arm is hanging free |
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Post by stoltecmoto on Dec 19, 2017 9:35:37 GMT -7
A paddock stand is not the same as a center stand. A paddock stand still loads the rear suspension.
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Post by evitzee on Dec 19, 2017 13:21:25 GMT -7
From the Yamaha Service Manual, p. 3-19:
Drive chain slack (Maintenance stand): 25-35 mm
Drive chain slack (Side stand): 20-30 mm
This would indicate that there is more slack using a paddock stand than the sidestand.
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Post by clayton on Dec 19, 2017 13:41:34 GMT -7
From the Yamaha Service Manual, p. 3-19: Drive chain slack (Maintenance stand): 25-35 mm Drive chain slack (Side stand): 20-30 mm This would indicate that there is more slack using a paddock stand than the sidestand. But what does Yamaha consider a maintenance stand? Could be something totally different from a paddock stand |
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Post by evitzee on Dec 19, 2017 14:05:09 GMT -7
From the Yamaha Service Manual, p. 3-19: Drive chain slack (Maintenance stand): 25-35 mm Drive chain slack (Side stand): 20-30 mm This would indicate that there is more slack using a paddock stand than the sidestand. But what does Yamaha consider a maintenance stand? Could be something totally different from a paddock stand I would be amazed and flabbergasted if Yamaha's definition of a maintenance stand is any different than a paddock stand, rear stand or any other definition that is floating around. The only practical way in the field to get the rear tire off the ground is to use a stand using the swingarm as the support points. |
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superspirit
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Post by superspirit on Dec 19, 2017 14:49:32 GMT -7
Yamaha might be recommending something like the ABBA stand which lifts from the swingarm pivot point.
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