871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jun 27, 2024 5:08:15 GMT -7
I purchased a new 2023 MT-10 about two months ago and I'm approaching the 1k mile mark. I absolutely love the bike and have added a bunch of mods to suit my needs, including a decat. There is one thing I'm curious about, though. I've seen a lot of videos, posts, and comments online about the MT-10 having a lot of power in the low/mid range. It makes me wonder what bikes these guys were riding before getting their MT-10's, because I disagree with this completely.
I've had quite a few bikes in my time, but my previous bike was a 2020 Suzuki GSX-S1000 (naked model) that I bought new and put roughly 8k miles on before selling it and picking up the MT-10, so a great bike to compare back to back to the MT-10 being that they're both 1000cc naked bikes.
Comparing the GSX-S to the MT, I find the low/mid range performance of the MT to be pretty bad. It lacks low RPM power and really seems to struggle below 3500-4000 RPM, lugging along, producing a ton of unhappy vibration, and not waking up/smoothing out until 4-5k RPM or so. The GSX-S would happily cruise along in 6th gear at 2800-3000 RPM with no lugging or vibration, whereas the MT just won't do that without me feeling like I'm hurting the thing. I dropped the front sprocket down one tooth from 16 to 15 to help with this. It gained me a smoother takeoff from stops, as the bike will shudder when fully releasing the clutch lever if I don't give it a lot of throttle and clutch slip. It also helped allow me to cruise at a lower RPM/higher gear at slower speeds because the engine doesn't have to overcome the long gearing. It wasn't a good idea for Yamaha to lengthen the gearing on the 2022+ models in order to increase fuel economy because overall ridability and smoothness below 4k RPM suffered.
I had both bikes dyno tuned by the same reputable tuner. All factory restrictions were removed and the fueling was sorted on both to account for the mods (exhaust, etc). The MT's low/mid range performance is only slightly better than it was before the tune. It made less horsepower and torque throughout the entire range than the GSX-S, including nearly 10 horsepower and 4 foot pounds of torque less at peak. Once I figure out how to post pics here, I'll upload the dyno graphs.
Does anyone have any input on why so many people claim the MT-10 is such a low/mid range beast?
|
|
Sponsored Ad
|
2wheeledprivilege
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 52
Likes: 34
Registered: Jun 2, 2023 16:42:54 GMT -7
|
Post by 2wheeledprivilege on Jun 27, 2024 17:10:31 GMT -7
My 23' MT10 was exactly as you describe but that was before the the Leo Vince exhaust and the 2 wheel dyno works tune. It now pulls hard from idle to past (stock) redline. The bike will easily start moving from idle with zero throttle input and effortlessly ride through parking lots with just the clutch. It used to struggle to cruise below 3500-4000, now it will actually accelerate from mid 2000 rpms in any gear. I give full credit to 2 wheel dyno works for "waking" the MT(s) up, they have figured out how to properly tune these bikes.
|
|
|
Post by RedAndBlack on Jun 27, 2024 19:46:12 GMT -7
I mean the low range isn't much higher than most sport bikes but certainly beats the R1. The bike is much better at midrange after 6000 RPMs (where it bogs down). I mean I haven't studied dyno graphs of all the different 1000s but to my knowledge there not much debate on how good the midrange torque is on the MT 10
|
|
871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jun 29, 2024 4:58:05 GMT -7
I mean the low range isn't much higher than most sport bikes but certainly beats the R1. The bike is much better at midrange after 6000 RPMs (where it bogs down). I mean I haven't studied dyno graphs of all the different 1000s but to my knowledge there not much debate on how good the midrange torque is on the MT 10 From the comments online, I expected it to be much better. As I mentioned, my 2020 Suzuki GSX-S1000 made more horsepower and torque at every point on the dyno graph, including its peak numbers for both. It didn't have any issues with vibration or being sluggish in the low and early midrange like the MT-10. The GSX-S is also using a nearly 20 year old engine design (legendary K5 based engine), so I expected the newer CP4 to be an all around better performer. I'm still happy with the bike, but I guess my expectations on how well this engine was supposed to perform in the low to midrange were slightly off target. If I could figure out how to post pictures here, I'd upload the dyno graphs from both bikes. I'm using the mobile site and I see no option to include pictures in my posts/replies. ETA: Just switched to the desktop version and figured out the pics. Here's the graphs from both bikes. Different days, but same tuner, mods, and dyno. ![](https://i.ibb.co/j5hgKyT/Screenshot-20240626-203045-Gallery.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/2FXS9tf/Screenshot-20240626-203052-Gallery.jpg)
|
|
871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jun 29, 2024 5:12:13 GMT -7
My 23' MT10 was exactly as you describe but that was before the the Leo Vince exhaust and the 2 wheel dyno works tune. It now pulls hard from idle to past (stock) redline. The bike will easily start moving from idle with zero throttle input and effortlessly ride through parking lots with just the clutch. It used to struggle to cruise below 3500-4000, now it will actually accelerate from mid 2000 rpms in any gear. I give full credit to 2 wheel dyno works for "waking" the MT(s) up, they have figured out how to properly tune these bikes. Mine is definitely better after adding the exhaust and tune, but it's still not as perfect as you describe. Did you remove your oxygen sensors or leave them? I left mine on because I wanted to retain the cruise control functionality. They're constantly fighting to lean the bike back out at light/partial throttle inputs and low/midrange RPM's which is what's giving me the poor performance during takeoffs, at very low speeds, and at lower RPM. My bike definitely will not idle along at any speed below 14-15 MPH. I have to use light throttle and clutch slip to maintain low speeds (such as what we would encounter in traffic).
|
|
wintersdark
New Member
Posts: 49
Likes: 29
Registered: Sept 29, 2023 16:01:52 GMT -7
|
Post by wintersdark on Jun 29, 2024 12:32:31 GMT -7
As I said in another thread, the electronic throttle valves are INCREDIBLY restricted below 5000rpm or so: No matter how far you twist the throttle, you're never getting more than around 36%. Then up to I think 7000rpm you never get more than 70% throttle. I'm going by memory here, but the ETV table is super restricted. Flashing the bike and opening those up so you're actually able to get 100% throttle if you ask for it is hugely important for this bike. Between that and fueling changes, a 2WDW flash gets you 15-20hp all the way across the table *even with the stock exhaust and cats*. You can get more by replacing the cats and link pipe too.
Stock, the bike is wierdly notchy, and there's those two points where you can clearly feel the power changing. That's not a feature of the engine design, it's just the ETV tables. I'll go look for the video that shows the stock tables: (Not an endorsement of Moore Mafia; I've never run one of their flashes and know nothing about them other than this is the stock electronic throttle table).
It's VERY clear why the low end power doesn't end up being what you'd want it to be.
|
|
2wheeledprivilege
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 52
Likes: 34
Registered: Jun 2, 2023 16:42:54 GMT -7
|
Post by 2wheeledprivilege on Jun 29, 2024 16:30:07 GMT -7
My O2 sensors are disabled by the tune from 2WDW, so they have no effect on air fuel ratio, I also left them plugged in, truely love the cruise control. It seems that a lot of tuners don't get these bikes quite right, likely due to the ETV tables (as mentioned by wintersdark). 2WDW has put in countless hours testing and adjusting the tune and ETV tables to get it damn near 100% perfect. If I'm not mistaken there are over 90 points of adjustment for each gear in the ETV tables, most tuners will not spend the necessary time to dial them all in properly. I've seen many people claming 150- 160whp after the 2WDW tune. For me, the extra power was just a bonus, the bike is indescribably better all around. Smoother:shifting, off idle response and no more waiting for 6k rpm for the power to hit. Power delivery is now linear and noticeably stronger and doesn't fall off after 10,200 rpm. Taken to the limit most other bikes with 180• cranks, will make more peak power, as our beloved crossplanes are not as efficient but they really shine in corner exit speed. Driving4answers on youtube has a great video explaining the benefits of the crossplane crank. P.S. In no way am I trying disrespect or insult your tuner, just sharing information as I understand it.
|
|
871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jun 30, 2024 6:54:22 GMT -7
As I said in another thread, the electronic throttle valves are INCREDIBLY restricted below 5000rpm or so: No matter how far you twist the throttle, you're never getting more than around 36%. Then up to I think 7000rpm you never get more than 70% throttle. I'm going by memory here, but the ETV table is super restricted. Flashing the bike and opening those up so you're actually able to get 100% throttle if you ask for it is hugely important for this bike. Between that and fueling changes, a 2WDW flash gets you 15-20hp all the way across the table *even with the stock exhaust and cats*. You can get more by replacing the cats and link pipe too. Stock, the bike is wierdly notchy, and there's those two points where you can clearly feel the power changing. That's not a feature of the engine design, it's just the ETV tables. I'll go look for the video that shows the stock tables: (Not an endorsement of Moore Mafia; I've never run one of their flashes and know nothing about them other than this is the stock electronic throttle table). It's VERY clear why the low end power doesn't end up being what you'd want it to be. As I mentioned in my opening post, my bike has been decatted and tuned/flashed to remove all the factory restrictions and dial in the fueling. So I think it's just a characteristic of this particular engine because even watching videos of guys who have had their bikes flashed, I can still see the shudder at takeoff and the hear the vibration at lower RPM's. But the throttle restrictions are completely ridiculous. Nothing like buying what is essentially a hyper naked and having it completely restricted and dialed back from the factory. The Suzuki GSX-S1000 was the same way and it seems they're all like this anymore.
|
|
871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jun 30, 2024 7:14:20 GMT -7
My O2 sensors are disabled by the tune from 2WDW, so they have no effect on air fuel ratio, I also left them plugged in, truely love the cruise control. It seems that a lot of tuners don't get these bikes quite right, likely due to the ETV tables (as mentioned by wintersdark). 2WDW has put in countless hours testing and adjusting the tune and ETV tables to get it damn near 100% perfect. If I'm not mistaken there are over 90 points of adjustment for each gear in the ETV tables, most tuners will not spend the necessary time to dial them all in properly. I've seen many people claming 150- 160whp after the 2WDW tune. For me, the extra power was just a bonus, the bike is indescribably better all around. Smooter:shifting, off idle response and no more waiting for 6k rpm for the power to hit. Power delivery is now linear and noticeably stronger and doesn't fall off after 10,200 rpm. Taken to the limit most other bikes with 180• cranks, will make more peak power, as our beloved crossplanes are not as efficient but they really shine in corner exit speed. Driving4answers on youtube has a great video explaining the benefits of the crossplane crank. P.S. In no way am I trying disrespect or insult your tuner, just sharing information as I understand it. No offense taken regarding my tuner. And I don't think there's that much to removing the throttle restrictions. All restrictions should be removed, regardless of gear. That is to say, no matter the gear selection, the throttle bodies/valves should equally match the throttle tube inputs commanded by the rider. So 20% input at the throttle tube should equal 20% opening at the valves, 50% should equal 50%, 100% should equal 100%, etc. If you look at the ETV tables using Woolich software, you can see how much the throttle valves are opening at a given RPM and throttle input. They should all be maxed out so there's a 1:1 correlation between the two. That's how those restrictions are removed. And disabling the O2 sensors via the tune/flash doesn't disable them from operating, it only stops the ECU from throwing a code if they are unplugged. If they're plugged in, they're still operating and impacting fueling during lower RPM and light throttle engine operation. For instance, on my GSX-S1000, I had the tuner disable the PAIR valve (Suzuki's name for the AIS system on Yamahas). If I unplugged the PAIR solenoid, the ECU would not throw a code, but if I plugged it back in, it would still operate as normal. It was easy to tell whether or not it was actually operating when plugged in because it would pop and bang just like the MT-10 does when the AIS system isn't plugged, then the popping/banging would stop when it was unplugged and the solenoid remained closed. The software does the same when disabling the O2 sensors. It doesn't actually stop the ECU from using the data they're providing, it only prevents a code from being thrown when they're unplugged and the ECU no longer receives their data. You can confirm this directly with Woolich/FTECU, etc. Checking those boxes does not stop them from doing their thing when installed, only from a code being thrown when they're no longer in place. We confirmed this on the dyno, as well. With them "disabled" but still installed in the exhaust and plugged in, the air/fuel ratio was much leaner than it was when we unplugged them and allowed the bike to run off of the static tune, which was obviously a lot richer than factory fueling. The only reason I decided to leave them on the bike is because I wanted to retain cruise control functionality. I'm starting to think I should unplug them and then go for a ride and see how the bike runs with using only the new fueling tables and not being fought by the data provided by the sensors constantly trying to lean it back out. I'm better it will be much, much better.
|
|
871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jun 30, 2024 7:32:28 GMT -7
In the end, I guess the MT-10 just doesn't have the dominant low/midrange power that so many claim it does. It has plenty, but not so much that it outshines all other 1000cc naked bikes. That's clear to see when comparing the graphs from both bikes taken on the same dyno. The GSX-S with it's detuned 20 year old K5 GSX-R1000 engine beat it in horsepower and torque from start to finish. Nothing I can't live with or even a real complaint, as they're both very close to one another with more power than we can legitimately use on the street, just not the results I expected due to the hype.
|
|
2wheeledprivilege
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 52
Likes: 34
Registered: Jun 2, 2023 16:42:54 GMT -7
|
Post by 2wheeledprivilege on Jun 30, 2024 21:17:06 GMT -7
2wdw mentioned the closed loop system being disabled, so that the O2 sensors could not affect the tune. As far as having a 1 to 1 throttle, it is my understanding that at low rpms a wide open throttle could cause the engine to bog down, due to loss of intake velocity. As I'm sure you are aware, intake velocity is crucial for torque generation at lower rpms, unlike higher rpms where volume is necessary. The use of the crossplane crank really only has one advantage to the "standard" 180 degree crank. That advantage will not be noticed on a dyno or in a drag race but will be noticed (with a skilled rider) on a twisty road course. The irregular timing of the engines power pulses allow time for the rear tire to recover grip (in between the pulses) which allows for a much faster corner exit speed. This may be the reason the CP4 engines have a reputation for low end power, the ability to add more throttle when exiting corners, while maintaining grip.
|
|
871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jul 1, 2024 12:16:10 GMT -7
2wdw mentioned the closed loop system being disabled, so that the O2 sensors could not affect the tune. As far as having a 1 to 1 throttle, it is my understanding that at low rpms a wide open throttle could cause the engine to bog down, due to loss of intake velocity. As I'm sure you are aware, intake velocity is crucial for torque generation at lower rpms, unlike higher rpms where volume is necessary. The use of the crossplane crank really only has one advantage to the "standard" 180 degree crank. That advantage will not be noticed on a dyno or in a drag race but will be noticed (with a skilled rider) on a twisty road course. The irregular timing of the engines power pulses allow time for the rear tire to recover grip (in between the pulses) which allows for a much faster corner exit speed. This may be the reason the CP4 engines have a reputation for low end power, the ability to add more throttle when exiting corners, while maintaining grip. That may be true regarding intake velocity versus intake volume in relation to engine RPM. I honestly haven't studied that subject in depth. From my subjective experience, I can say that I never noticed any bogging during low RPM/high throttle inputs on my older bikes which had cable operated throttles and no ability to alter that ratio through the use of electronic throttle bodies. Those were true examples of a legitimate 1:1 ratio between throttle tube input and throttle blade opening, regardless of RPM. I've always assumed the ETV restrictions on modern bikes were in place in large part to restrict power for reduced liability (and potentially other noise and emissions compliance reasons), just like gear based timing restrictions. If the manufacturers weren't trying to restrict power, why else would they limit throttle plate openings, especially at higher percentage throttle (tube) positions in higher RPM ranges where they would need to be wide open in order to achieve the necessary volume and velocity requirements of the engine? If you look at the factory ETV mapping of many US versus European bikes, you'll see differences, along with different numbers for peak power output, so the restrictions in the ETV mapping can't specifically be in place to optimize the need for velocity versus volume at a given RPM, as those needs would be the same regardless of US/Europe.
|
|
2wheeledprivilege
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 52
Likes: 34
Registered: Jun 2, 2023 16:42:54 GMT -7
|
Post by 2wheeledprivilege on Jul 1, 2024 16:57:24 GMT -7
Depending on how old, the older cable operated bikes you are referencing. Many had secondary throttle valves that would operate indirectly of the accelerator's input, to maintain intake charge velocity. My 06 SV1000s had this secondary throttle as well as the the timing retard in the first 3 gears. I think the principal purpose of ETVs when paired with an IMU is to allow for the modern features such as :traction control, wheelie control, cruise control, emissions control etc. and as you mentioned, liability mitigation. I for one am grateful for most of thse features but even more grateful for woolich for making them accessible and tunable to the end users. Once (most) people learn that an internal cumbustion engine is essentially an "air pump", they mistakenly assume that more air is always better, all the time. The problem with that assumption is they completely ignore the importance of flow or intake charge velocity and density. We all know that engines with 1 intake and 1 exhaust valve per cyl (a.k.a 2 valve) are usually better at making low rpm torque. While the the 4 valve per cyl (2 in, 2 ex) engines are known for higher rpm performance. Honda's renowned VTEC 4 valve 4 cyl (auto) engines from the 90s used 2 intake runners for each cylinder, one long and thin the other short and fat. There was an ECU controlled valve that kept the short runner(s) closed at lower rpm, before vtec was activated to maximize flow. When the rpm threshold was achieved, the cam "pins" would shift to activate the higher lift lobe and the short/fat intaker runner(s) were opened to maximize volume.
|
|
871jz
Junior Member
![*](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 62
Likes: 12
Registered: May 1, 2024 6:51:14 GMT -7
|
Post by 871jz on Jul 1, 2024 23:32:38 GMT -7
Depending on how old, the older cable operated bikes you are referencing. Many had secondary throttle valves that would operate indirectly of the accelerator's input, to maintain intake charge velocity. My 06 SV1000s had this secondary throttle as well as the the timing retard in the first 3 gears. I think the principal purpose of ETVs when paired with an IMU is to allow for the modern features such as :traction control, wheelie control, cruise control, emissions control etc. and as you mentioned, liability mitigation. I for one am grateful for most of thse features but even more grateful for woolich for making them accessible and tunable to the end users. Once (most) people learn that an internal cumbustion engine is essentially an "air pump", they mistakenly assume that more air is always better, all the time. The problem with that assumption is they completely ignore the importance of flow or intake charge velocity and density. We all know that engines with 1 intake and 1 exhaust valve per cyl (a.k.a 2 valve) are usually better at making low rpm torque. While the the 4 valve per cyl (2 in, 2 ex) engines are known for higher rpm performance. Honda's renowned VTEC 4 valve 4 cyl (auto) engines from the 90s used 2 intake runners for each cylinder, one long and thin the other short and fat. There was an ECU controlled valve that kept the short runner(s) closed at lower rpm, before vtec was activated to maximize flow. When the rpm threshold was achieved, the cam "pins" would shift to activate the higher lift lobe and the short/fat intaker runner(s) were opened to maximize volume. Yes, my 2020 GSX-S1000 had a cable operated throttle, but also had electronic secondary throttle valves that heavily restricted throttle plate openings in relation to rider input. We eliminated the STV restrictions during the tune to achieve that 1:1 ratio. Thankfully, there was no low RPM bogging as you can see in the dyno sheet above where the initial (wide open) hit started at about 3800 RPM. It was also a popular modification to mechanically disable them by completely removing the throttle plates in the STV's on mid 2000 and newer era sport bikes that ran the same cable throttle with electronic STV's to achieve a 1:1 ratio with good results. Also, I'm not sure how often riders are going wide open throttle at very low RPM. It just doesn't seem like a very effective technique. All in all, I think the issue of potentially experiencing bogging during low RPM/high throttle percentage may not be that much of a real concern. Just my opinion, of course. I have nothing against anyone who disagrees and there's always a possibility that I'm overlooking something.
|
|
3genx
New Member
Posts: 46
Likes: 37
Registered: Feb 25, 2019 19:39:59 GMT -7
|
Post by 3genx on Aug 30, 2024 1:44:34 GMT -7
I believe you could be making noticeably more power than you are and perhaps then you would compare the 10 more favorably against the Zuki. I wouldn't hesitate if I were you to mail your ECU to 2WDW for a reflash. If you did, I think you find it putting out closer to the green line I drew in on your dyno graph. ![]() ![](https://i.ibb.co/XjDLVHH/Untitled.png)
|
|