squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 21, 2023 5:52:12 GMT -7
Even after getting my suspension set up, due to the front tire hardly being in contact with the road most of the time, I get a fair amount of headshake under hard acceleration.
I took off the stock damper to see if it was in any way adjustable, which of course it isn't. What I noticed is that it has a low speed and high speed damping circuit, at least on the 2023 model. I assume others are the same?
When I push it by hand slowly it an easy push but as soon as I get to a certain speed it "clicks" and increases resistance by a significant margin. What I also noticed is that if I hold it in my hand and try to pump it back and forth really fast, a movement I have spent perfecting over many decades... I can get it to kick into that high speed damping circuit, back and forth... But, it lags a bit. In between transitioning from one direction to the other, there is a 1/8 to 1/4 inch of "play" where it is clearly in the easy low damping circuit...
I think that when the front end is wiggling back and forth, is when it is in that "gap", and allows the front end to wiggle more than it should... Once it gets to the high speed circuit it stiffens and tames it... But when the tire is skimming the ground and hitting the road imperfections, I believe that the OEM damper really isn't all that great... The big hits it handles, but the little rapid fire movements it doesn't handle so well and that is why it feels a little squirrely?
Anyone agree or disagree, and why?
Luckily the mounts will accommodate most aftermarket dampers, so I can play around and see if an adjustable one works better...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2023 6:17:33 GMT -7
Hmmm.
Have you dialed in your suspension already? If not that could be part of the problem as well.
My shake was practically eliminated after getting my suspension setup properly.
Every now and then on really windy days I still get a little shake but nothing that bothers me.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 21, 2023 6:20:10 GMT -7
Hmmm. Have you dialed in your suspension already? If not that could be part of the problem as well. My shake was practically eliminated after getting my suspension setup properly. Every now and then on really windy days I still get a little shake but nothing that bothers me. I did, but I need to replace the shock, and probably the springs up front, possibly the valving up front as well. I am 250 with gear and the stock suspension just isn't sprung for me. If I put a stiffer spring on the stock shock it will overpower the damping on it, so I need it all replaced if I want to do track days on this thing... I know that's the first thing, but we set it up as best we could. I use GMD Computrack and they do good work...
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bmwd40
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Post by bmwd40 on Apr 21, 2023 8:36:51 GMT -7
Hmmm. Have you dialed in your suspension already? If not that could be part of the problem as well. My shake was practically eliminated after getting my suspension setup properly. Every now and then on really windy days I still get a little shake but nothing that bothers me. I did, but I need to replace the shock, and probably the springs up front, possibly the valving up front as well. I am 250 with gear and the stock suspension just isn't sprung for me. If I put a stiffer spring on the stock shock it will overpower the damping on it, so I need it all replaced if I want to do track days on this thing... I know that's the first thing, but we set it up as best we could. I use GMD Computrack and they do good work...
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bmwd40
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Post by bmwd40 on Apr 21, 2023 8:42:05 GMT -7
Stock rear shock is junk. Replace it with an aftermarket shock sprung for your weight. I like the Ohlins TTX shock because of the twin tube design, keeps the compression damping from effecting the rebound damping. If you do re-spring the forks you will probably want to revalve also.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 21, 2023 10:07:51 GMT -7
Yeah, I reached out to my guy, he's working one of the MotoAmerica teams this weekend at Road Atlanta, so I should get the quote from him next week and go from there. I am thinking K-Tech springs and valving up front, and either a K-Tech or Nitron shock spring for my weight. The Nitron comes with that same turquois blue spring that matches my rims...
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 21, 2023 10:08:27 GMT -7
Here is something I noticed with the stock damper when I removed it. Anyone else think that this is normal, or that perhaps this is why I am feeling what I am feeling?
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Post by RedAndBlack on Apr 22, 2023 13:57:03 GMT -7
Ok so as someone who basically only rides this bike agresively on the track and in canyons, here's my two cents.
The bike does have a loose front end with some head wobble as pretty much all naked/stand up bikes will. That's what you sacrifice with these bikes. You sacrifice a more comfortable riding position for a less agresive front rake angle on a supersport that would otherwise be more stable and will have less head shake and feel more planted in the front end.
Now with that in mind, for owning this bike for 5 years now and driving it over all types of bumps and through all types of different situations, whether dragging knee trail braking or on a gentle spirited ride, I have yet to run into an issue with almost losing the front end do to front end wobble or the loose steering. Yes the steering will feel loose, yes you will get head wobble if you hit a bump mid turn, but the bike is GREAT at quickly straightening it out. Where the head wobble could be detrimental is if you reacted incorrectly to it vs basically just do nothing and let the bike sort it out (the bikes physics want to set the wheel straight again).
So what you're experiencing is normal. And on a bike that is properly set up with it's suspension tuned, it should be manageable.
I've yet to have any type of tank slapper or near tank slapper doing wheelies or hitting dips or bumps that make you go airborne.
So basically, its my opinion that the stock steering damper is sufficient enough for non-racing and probably intermediate level track riding. Is it a good damper? No. No stock dampers are good. But you might end up with a tighter steering bike that's harder to turn in with an aftermarket steering damper which could have a tendency to run the bike wide trying to "fix" a problem which is just merely a natural tendency on naked/stand up bikes.
At the end of the day, to each their own. Your riding comfort and confidence is the one of the most important factors in your success on a motorcycle. So you need to do what you need to do to keep you confident on that bike.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 23, 2023 5:58:34 GMT -7
Ok so as someone who basically only rides this bike agresively on the track and in canyons, here's my two cents. The bike does have a loose front end with some head wobble as pretty much all naked/stand up bikes will. That's what you sacrifice with these bikes. You sacrifice a more comfortable riding position for a less agresive front rake angle on a supersport that would otherwise be more stable and will have less head shake and feel more planted in the front end. Now with that in mind, for owning this bike for 5 years now and driving it over all types of bumps and through all types of different situations, whether dragging knee trail braking or on a gentle spirited ride, I have yet to run into an issue with almost losing the front end do to front end wobble or the loose steering. Yes the steering will feel loose, yes you will get head wobble if you hit a bump mid turn, but the bike is GREAT at quickly straightening it out. Where the head wobble could be detrimental is if you reacted incorrectly to it vs basically just do nothing and let the bike sort it out (the bikes physics want to set the wheel straight again). So what you're experiencing is normal. And on a bike that is properly set up with it's suspension tuned, it should be manageable. I've yet to have any type of tank slapper or near tank slapper doing wheelies or hitting dips or bumps that make you go airborne. So basically, its my opinion that the stock steering damper is sufficient enough for non-racing and probably intermediate level track riding. Is it a good damper? No. No stock dampers are good. But you might end up with a tighter steering bike that's harder to turn in with an aftermarket steering damper which could have a tendency to run the bike wide trying to "fix" a problem which is just merely a natural tendency on naked/stand up bikes. At the end of the day, to each their own. Your riding comfort and confidence is the one of the most important factors in your success on a motorcycle. So you need to do what you need to do to keep you confident on that bike. Yeah, I have had a LOT of naked bikes over the years... 4 Ducati Monsters, a Super Duke 990, Streetfighter 1098, 2 Speed Triple 1050's, an FZ1, 2 Tuono's, a Street Triple RS, a Hypermotard and some others I am likely forgetting. The new MT-10 is among the best of them, but the front does feel squirrely and I have narrowed it down to that OEM damper. In trying to make it loose at low speeds but then stiff at higher, the damping circuit doesn't transition well at all, and when you get some rapid back and forth oscillation over bumps and hard acceleration, there is a... "dead zone" as it goes from side to side where there is hardly any damping... I have now tried two other dampers and both of them corrected the issue, so its an easy fix. I never felt like I was going to get into a real tank slapper, but when all your other bikes are planted and stable, and then you ride one that feels jittery, its really distracting, to me at least...
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Post by mt10orc on Apr 23, 2023 7:01:35 GMT -7
Quick and easy for me. You get used to it. Coming from cruisers to sport bikes, you appreciate the nimbleness and adjust. Never even thought about replacing it, but took some relearning how to ride. Probably two months for me to adjust to the twitchy front end. Love it just the way it is now. Could I make it better probably, do I want to relearn my bike again, probably not.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 23, 2023 7:09:08 GMT -7
Well, for not much money I fixed the twitch, so there is that...
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Post by mt10orc on Apr 23, 2023 7:13:20 GMT -7
Well, for not much money I fixed the twitch, so there is that... That’s cool, as we all have our comfort zone. I may think about doing it some day to see the difference, but probably should get my stock suspension dialed or replaced with better stuff. That was going to be my next area to play with, though it serves me well now.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 23, 2023 7:33:40 GMT -7
If anyone is interested, I picked up one of the Ohlins clones off of Amazon and took it for a spin. 14 clicks in(of 24 available) from full out, seemed to do the trick. I have one of these dampers on my 2022 Triumph Speed Twin 1200 and it still going strong. I have used them on other bikes over the years with good results.
If you don't like the jittery nature of the OEM unit, it's a direct bolt on and swap. I did have to add a few washers to get it aligned properly, but that was it.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 23, 2023 7:35:08 GMT -7
Well, for not much money I fixed the twitch, so there is that... That’s cool, as we all have our comfort zone. I may think about doing it some day to see the difference, but probably should get my stock suspension dialed or replaced with better stuff. That was going to be my next area to play with, though it serves me well now. Yeah, I am waiting on a quote from GMD Computrack to replace the shock with a properly sprung Nitron or K-Tech unit, as well as K-Tech cartridges and springs up front... Of course by the time I am done with all this stuff, I probably should have just bought the SP model, but oh well... lol
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fzsea
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Post by fzsea on Apr 28, 2023 9:15:54 GMT -7
Is there a thread that examines the difference in dampers between gens? The new one doesn’t have an electrical connection like the previous generation. I don’t pretend to know anything about this either way. Just curious. Cheers
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Post by willl84 on Apr 28, 2023 11:08:08 GMT -7
Is there a thread that examines the difference in dampers between gens? The new one doesn’t have an electrical connection like the previous generation. I don’t pretend to know anything about this either way. Just curious. Cheers Not that I've seen anywhere. I didn't even know the second gen ditched the electronic
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 28, 2023 11:21:38 GMT -7
Is there a thread that examines the difference in dampers between gens? The new one doesn’t have an electrical connection like the previous generation. I don’t pretend to know anything about this either way. Just curious. Cheers Not that I've seen anywhere. I didn't even know the second gen ditched the electronic Yeah, the new one is not only completely manual, but it has this wonky "dead spot" when you move it back and forth. If you didn't watch the video in the OP, check it out and tell me if you think that is normal.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 29, 2023 17:11:54 GMT -7
Got to play a bit today with the new damper installed. MUCH BETTER. No head shake or wonkiness...
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turdferguson
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Post by turdferguson on May 1, 2023 1:03:08 GMT -7
Got to play a bit today with the new damper installed. MUCH BETTER. No head shake or wonkiness... Which one did you go with and where did you buy it? Link?
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on May 1, 2023 6:01:45 GMT -7
Got to play a bit today with the new damper installed. MUCH BETTER. No head shake or wonkiness... Which one did you go with and where did you buy it? Link? Got an Ohlins clone off Amazon, same one I have on my Triumph Speed Twin 1200, and it's been great... amzn.to/3Vncnrp
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