cowthulhu
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Post by cowthulhu on Mar 19, 2023 21:59:41 GMT -7
Putting this here in case anyone else had same concern I had. I bought a used MT 10 with a Yoshimura 3/4 exhaust and muffler. Previous owner said he never got the ecu flashed. I read on here a lot of debate as to whether an ecu flash was necessary in these circumstances. I emailed the company and got this as a response. Hope this helps for anyone looking.
"The Yoshimura exhaust was designed to work with the stock settings on the FZ-10/MT-10. It re-uses the stock o2 sensor to allow the ecu to adjust the fueling on the motorcycle.
We are in Southern California, so in other parts of the world, the fueling might need to be adjusted to get the best performance out of the motorcycle due to elevation/climate, riding conditions, or engine modifications. In those cases, customers have gone with a fuel controller from one of the aftermarket companies that make them (Bazzaz, Power Commander, or others), or having the ecu re-flashed.
There are also companies like Graves or Driven that are making the block off plates for the secondary air system.
I hope this helps you with your questions. Thank you." - Yoshimura Sales Representative
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Post by willl84 on Mar 20, 2023 6:53:19 GMT -7
TL;DR when it comes to ECU flashing:
Is it needed? No.
Is it recommended? Yes.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 12, 2023 6:22:33 GMT -7
I love how exhaust makers claim their pipes make significant power gains, "with no refueling needed".
It's a lie. If the exhaust changes the airflow through the motor enough to pick up several HP, then it changes it enough to need fueling changes. But if they tell you that you have to spend money on an ECU flash, or buy a power commander and pay for dyno time, they know it will hurt sales of their product.
Take the MT10 with a Leo Vince decat link pipe and stock headers and muffler. The bike drops 6hp and is lean AF in spots. Flash the ECU and tune it and you go from 6hp less than stock, to 12-15hp more than stock. It's a big difference.
And there is no "self tuning" bikes, not really. You have O2 sensors but they are narrowband and very limited in what they can read and do. And they only operate under 5000rpm and under 20% throttle typically. That's your closed loop section and they can make SMALL changes there. Anything outside of that range... if its off, it stays off. Only way to fix it is to tune it.
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Post by willl84 on Apr 12, 2023 6:41:08 GMT -7
I love how exhaust makers claim their pipes make significant power gains, "with no refueling needed". It's a lie. If the exhaust changes the airflow through the motor enough to pick up several HP, then it changes it enough to need fueling changes. But if they tell you that you have to spend money on an ECU flash, or buy a power commander and pay for dyno time, they know it will hurt sales of their product. Take the MT10 with a Leo Vince decat link pipe and stock headers and muffler. The bike drops 6hp and is lean AF in spots. Flash the ECU and tune it and you go from 6hp less than stock, to 12-15hp more than stock. It's a big difference. And there is no "self tuning" bikes, not really. You have O2 sensors but they are narrowband and very limited in what they can read and do. And they only operate under 5000rpm and under 20% throttle typically. That's your closed loop section and they can make SMALL changes there. Anything outside of that range... if its off, it stays off. Only way to fix it is to tune it. FWIW you can gain that 12-15HP in the mid range with the stock exhaust too. You can even get upwards of 20-30 HP over stock at the top end but most of that comes from extending the rev limiter a touch and letting the throttle plates actually open to 100%. The stock throttle mapping actually closes off the throttle plates at high RPM and that drops power. There are low end and midrange gains to be had with a pipe and flash though. The biggest thing is getting rid of the factory dead spot at 5k RPM. |
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Apr 12, 2023 6:44:28 GMT -7
I totally get that. I have tuned dozens of bikes for all those things you mentioned. First thing I do when I buy a new Triumph is grab my Android tablet and bluetooth adapter and fire up TuneECU and get rid of all those ride by wire restrictions and force the throttle plates to open 100% and stay there till redline, etc...
They also tend to pull ignition timing in that area, so that needs to be increased as well...
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cowthulhu
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Post by cowthulhu on Jan 1, 2024 21:27:27 GMT -7
I wanted to update this post as I got a flash/dyno done last week. Before the flash/dyno, I was getting some pops and bangs from time to time but nothing at an alarming level. The flat spots in the RPM's were starting to bother me as I tried to learn how to be smoother with my control so I bit the bullet.
I will say if you are on the fence on the flash/dyno to do it. The smoothness of the throttle being the main reason and the pops and bangs are gone. The bike feels unleashed yet at the same time more refined in it's control. The pops and bangs are gone. I think the bike would have been fine without the flash/tune but now I feel like I'm getting my moneys worth. My wife has an RSV4 and the bike is closer to hers now. I would say it felt like it went from old man's bike to a young man's if that makes sense.
Will84 hit it on the head. Needed? No. Recommended? Yes.
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Post by willl84 on Jan 2, 2024 4:41:31 GMT -7
I wanted to update this post as I got a flash/dyno done last week. Before the flash/dyno, I was getting some pops and bangs from time to time but nothing at an alarming level. The flat spots in the RPM's were starting to bother me as I tried to learn how to be smoother with my control so I bit the bullet. I will say if you are on the fence on the flash/dyno to do it. The smoothness of the throttle being the main reason and the pops and bangs are gone. The bike feels unleashed yet at the same time more refined in it's control. The pops and bangs are gone. I think the bike would have been fine without the flash/tune but now I feel like I'm getting my moneys worth. My wife has an RSV4 and the bike is closer to hers now. I would say it felt like it went from old man's bike to a young man's if that makes sense. Will84 hit it on the head. Needed? No. Recommended? Yes. The flat spot between 5-6k is so noticeable and really annoying. The flash took care of that and so much more. The pops and bags are gone because the flash will disable the PAIR system. My bike had it stock under 4k I think it was. There was nothing on decel then once it hit 4k you'd start getting the pops. |
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Jan 2, 2024 6:29:23 GMT -7
You can disable the PAIR system with a simple marble, no flash needed. But the flash is always preferable because it does other things, obviously...
But for someone that JUST wants to disable PAIR, pull the pair hose off the bottom of the airbox, jam a marble in the hose and reconnect it. done.
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evolution380
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Post by evolution380 on Jan 2, 2024 7:37:01 GMT -7
I've always remapped whenever I do any breathing mods etc. and never regretted doing so. This is my 2023 MT10 with racefit exhaust on a very strict dyno which always gives low figures likely more accurate than the bragging number of 156 at the rear wheel i got a week later on a dyno day. So much smoother through the rev range, no more awful flat spots and the throttle mapping makes so much difference out or corners. I had the AIS disabled so no more machine gun fire but i can make it chuck flames with throttle manipulation if i want to, best of both worlds. It was running really lean before mapping, so glad i got it done personally. Most manufacturers make similar claims to Yoshi regarding mapping as they wont stand behind what they say but I think the results speak for themselves when you get them mapped. They're in the business of selling exhausts not giving tuning advice. And some will be happy to slap an exhaust on but not want to pay the money for the map, so this narrative eases their mind for the purchase. Little snippet a few runs into the tune whilst it was flaming pretty good, toned down significantly by the end of the map.  |
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Jan 2, 2024 7:39:47 GMT -7
I've always remapped whenever I do any breathing mods etc. and never regretted doing so. This is my 2023 MT10 with racefit exhaust on a very strict dyno which always gives low figures likely more accurate than the bragging number of 156 at the rear wheel i got a week later on a dyno day. So much smoother through the rev range, no more awful flat spots and the throttle mapping makes so much difference out or corners. I had the AIS disabled so no more machine gun fire but i can make it chuck flames with throttle manipulation if i want to, best of both worlds. It was running really lean before mapping, so glad i got it done personally. Most manufacturers make similar claims to Yoshi regarding mapping as they wont stand behind what they say but I think the results speak for themselves when you get them mapped. They're in the business of selling exhausts not giving tuning advice. And some will be happy to slap an exhaust on but not want to pay the money for the map, so this narrative eases their mind for the purchase. What dyno, and why did they use DIN as the correction factor? Everyone uses either uncorrected or SAE. DIN and STD typically give higher numbers... |
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evolution380
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Post by evolution380 on Jan 2, 2024 7:53:49 GMT -7
I'm uk based so unsure if that makes any difference?
The best guys over here from looking at a few different graphs seem to use DIN Smoothing.
Not something I pretend to know in all honesty, I just see the end results and feel the difference and I'm happy and just pays my money to reputable tuners in the uk.
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squiresca
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Post by squiresca on Jan 2, 2024 8:04:14 GMT -7
I'm uk based so unsure if that makes any difference? The best guys over here from looking at a few different graphs seem to use DIN Smoothing. Not something I pretend to know in all honesty, I just see the end results and feel the difference and I'm happy and just pays my money to reputable tuners in the uk. It just makes it harder to compare apples to apples... All that matters from a tuning perspective is what did you go in with, and what did you leave with, and what was the difference as a percentage. The motor makes what it makes. But if you want to compare your results to others, then having a different correction factor can make those comparisons less relevant... When I look at my 2021 R1 chart in SAE(today), it makes 177hp. If I switch it to DIN then it says it makes 183hp. |
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evolution380
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Post by evolution380 on Jan 2, 2024 8:25:03 GMT -7
I wish you didn't mention this as i've gone down a whole rabbit hole haha reading up on it  . Yes to be fair the most reputable guys over here use DIN so i guess apples to apples within the UK at least. I couldn't tell you what Dyno they used on the Dyno Day I just know it wasn't DynoJet but it definately seemed inflated as a rear wheel number as did other peoples results. As you say that I don't even know what CF they used so not a like for like comparison although I guess DIN generally seems to give higher numbers. |
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