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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 12:37:47 GMT -7
Let's start with my settings, for the setup/new-shock suggestions: FRONT: stock preload, rebound at 10 (of 14), and comp all the way soft at 29 (manual says 23 max soft, but it has 29 clicks) REAR: stock preload, rebound at 13 (of 23), and comps all the way soft too. Soft comp has 23 clicks, not 18, by the way. REST: Tire pressures at 33F/36R cold, and these weights: rider 162 in shorts, all gear 13, tail bag 9, so total 184. By the way, when you hear suspension was tuned for a rider weight of xxx lbs (typically 150 to 160), is it in shorts, or fully geared? If the latter, then I'm not as light as I thought. Ha ha. Oh, and like to tackle the twisties aggressively (but I ride at 'the pace' mostly, so not overly so). Now to the main story. Just came back from a 2-day, 800-mile twisty intensive trip (yeah, it was too much, especially since it was in the 100s for many hours on both days), and my only disappointment was the suspension. It was downright jarring on broken pavement and frost heaves. Ended up progressively getting all compressions to the softest, and ride was still choppy. Better, but still harsh. Forgot the 14mm wrench to adjust the H comp, so borrowed one at my destination (Alpine, AZ). Since all other adjusters clearly topped out solidly when maxed out, and with more clicks than the manual said, decided to just 'unscrew' the 14mm nut until I felt it maxed out. Well, it never happened. And never heard any more clicks after the 5th. Probably did about 2 full turns at that point. Since that nut doesn't screw in or out like the others (it's on a circlip, so thread is internal), it was going to keep doing that. So decided to try bottoming it out, and it did... but without any clicks. Hmmm. So decided to back it out 5.5 turns, although the clicks were probably less than a full turn (do any of you guys remember?). At any rate, I for sure have it at max soft, and bike felt the same the next day, so doubt I screwed up anything mechanically (other than the clicking mechanism), but rather ask. Couldn't find any cut-outs to see how it works internally, by the way. Might ditch the shock anyway, but curious what I screwed up  . Finally, is there any hope for the rear shock, or should I spring for a new one? Detailed suggestions would be great. I haven't messed with the preload at the rear since bike feels fine in the twisties, and I don't think it'd fix not having enough compression adjustment IMO. The rear just feels weird; like disjointed. Can't put my finger on exactly what is happening, but the bike feels different than all others I've owned. Not bad, and not unsafe or unstable, but not great either. I honestly don't think adjusting preload would change the behavior of the shock, so I feel it'd be a waste of time, but I'm open to all comments regarding adjustment before spending on new hardware. I've read some generic suspension adjustment videos, but don't seem to relate to this bike, so decided to ask FZ/MT-10 owners directly . The front I can live with. It's still stiff, but not overly so IMO. And feels 'balanced'. But maybe other changes might make it feel better too, so comments welcome there. Thank you gang. JC |
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aavmann
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Post by aavmann on Sept 7, 2019 15:02:58 GMT -7
You would think broken pavement and frost heaves would be bone jarring. My solution: don't ride on messed up roads next time, and call a suspension guru to help sort everything out. 20 bucks says this guy knows nothing about anything, except how to start arguments, thread highjack/derail , and push his opinion on EVERYONE reading. Good luck helping him. Yeah. Agreed.... it really is a dangerous slippery slope when trading advice on suspension tuning on a forum so...I did just that last week, went to a professional suspension tuning shop... did the proper sag measurements etc. In the end I needed a new rear spring (ohlins) only and a crap ton of different settings than I had dialled in myself thinking I had it. Bike feels great... I feel confident in a specialists tune vs a forum or “buddies” that say this or that. Seems like we all tend to pay all kinds of money for farkles and mods but little on rider training or suspension setups done professionally. Oh well. To each their own.. |
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vstate60
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Post by vstate60 on Sept 7, 2019 15:46:24 GMT -7
Pay $40-60 and have a professional setup your suspension even if you got great info on here you wouldn’t be starting fromzero due to your tinkering with, and it sounds like screwing up, the original settings.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 16:41:36 GMT -7
Hey Aavmann, you seem like a reasonable person, so I'm a bit surprised you posted that. These forums are to share your advice and experience, and let others take what they want, and ignore the rest. With the logic you posted, why do you come here at all? Just go to a professional shop for whatever you need, no? But you're here, so you're contradicting yourself . I'm sure you want to know as much as possible about any issue before deciding if you really need a 'professional'. And if you do, to ask the right questions, etc. Well, that's exactly what I'm doing here brother . Absolutely nothing wrong sharing your advice on ANY issue, and the better detailed, the more it could help. And let other fellow forum members take it or leave it. And if you don't feel like helping, why not just move on to the next thread? Also, don't ass-u-me; doesn't make you look smart. And hope you don't take it the wrong way, and end up like the fool above, trying to ruin all my threads . First, I've spent well over 10 grand in 'rider training' over the years, with my last 2-day Superbike School camp at Laguna Seca just last April, which cost me half the bike with all expenses. I'm a lot better rider than the average Joe, so that assumption about me was wrong. And as far as suspension setup, I never said or implied 'I had it'. I'm basically the target weight of factory suspension tuning, so never needed a 'professional' before. plus there're none where I live. And most importantly, don't think I need one yet. I'm no expert, but know enough to know that no amount of sag, preload, or rebound can eliminate excessive compression damping, which is my main problem now. If I end up buying a shock (like a Wilbers from The Beemer Shop), it should come already 'dialed in' based on my specs, so wouldn't need a pro. Maybe if you had asked the experts here could have avoided paying a shop just to tell you a new shock is needed . That's the spirit of these forums. You two might have succeeded in ruining my thread, but that's okay. I believe in Karma. Ha ha. Still wish you a happy weekend . |
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dkim213
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Post by dkim213 on Sept 7, 2019 17:14:33 GMT -7
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dkim213
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Post by dkim213 on Sept 7, 2019 17:17:22 GMT -7
For the rear shock, I purchased a 15+ R1 shock (length adjustable) and had GP Suspension give me more rebound and respring it for my 230lb without gear weight. I haven’t been able to ride it since my bike is at the dealer for an oil pan leak.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 17:33:12 GMT -7
Pay $40-60 and have a professional setup your suspension even if you got great info on here you wouldn’t be starting fromzero due to your tinkering with, and it sounds like screwing up, the original settings. Hey, thank you for your positive contribution, even if it doesn't help me directly. You know, like I mentioned above, my main problem is the lack of compression damping adjustment. And based on the few posts I found while searching, I'm not the only one. So why waste money on trying to adjust a shock if it needs to be replaced anyway? Oh, and there's no such shop anywhere close to where I live. The bike worked perfectly fine after I adjusted all original settings by -2 clicks softer (including front preload), and works a bit better now with all comp adjustments fully softened. Did the last 400 miles that way, and at least I didn't develop a headache. Ha ha. Will take it on a week long tour of the Hill Country the following week, and see how it goes. Problem is, I rode my cousin's bike at the tail of the dragon area for a week in July, set up with Wilbers suspension (same weight as me), and I was spoiled man. Thought mine was fine, and assumed I had to endure the punishment of a stiff ride to feel good in the twisties with non-adjustable suspension, but apparently that's not the case. That bike was on rails in the twisties, and firm, but not harsh, on broken pavement prevalent all around where I live. So it's more like wanting a better suspension, rather than having a bad setup, if that makes sense. If there's a magic trick to make compression less stiff without having to buy a new shock, I'm all ears. He he. As a final thought, the suspension is good enough as it is IMO, but could definitely be better. The good news is I'll NEVER do what I did the last 2 days again. Riding 400 miles a day with over 200 of technical twisties, for 2 days straight, was not a great idea. Add searing heat, and badly maintained asphalt, and it was just crazy. With that level of seat time and effort, rider fatigue sets in, and every issue is compounded. Riding 250 miles a day max, should be perfectly fine as is, and will be able to confirm that in 2 weeks. If I decide to keep the suspension as is, will probably do the rider sag, which doesn't require an expert shop. The rebound should be pretty close to as good as it's going to get IMO. Might need a bit more preload at the rear, if anything. Seems a bit soft to me. Thanks again for trying to help. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 17:42:01 GMT -7
I’m try to learn as much as I can about suspension tuning... so I subscribe to the Dave moss videos. Hey, me too . I never needed to learn that before, but now that I do, want to know as much as I can before making any decisions. Thanks a million for your help. Will definitely watch them and see what applies to me. The good news is just like I suspected, the front suspension seems to be good enough to leave stock, minimizing the upgrade expense to just the shock, if at all. Glad my thread wasn't ruined by the negative members always present on all forums, since it can help many other members. Enjoy the rest of your weekend gang . |
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dkim213
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Post by dkim213 on Sept 7, 2019 17:53:58 GMT -7
I’m try to learn as much as I can about suspension tuning... so I subscribe to the Dave moss videos. Hey, me too . I never needed to learn that before, but now that I do, want to know as much as I can before making any decisions. Thanks a million for your help. Will definitely watch them and see what applies to me. The good news is just like I suspected, the front suspension seems to be good enough to leave stock, minimizing the upgrade expense to just the shock, if at all. Glad my thread wasn't ruined by the negative members always present on all forums, since it can help many other members. Enjoy the rest of your weekend gang . No problem. I do believe that we’re in this to help each other and others reading. But I do agree with the other members’ arguments. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 17:55:59 GMT -7
For the rear shock, I purchased a 15+ R1 shock (length adjustable) and had GP Suspension give me more rebound and respring it for my 230lb without gear weight. I haven’t been able to ride it since my bike is at the dealer for an oil pan leak. Oh man, sorry to hear about the leak. First time I hear of an oil leak. Several coolant ones, but no oil leaks so far. Where was it? And what year and mileage? Hope it's all done without adding any other issues, brother. Hey, thanks a million for that contribution. It's a GREAT idea. But have a few questions hope you don't mind asking: 1. Is it a complete bolt-on job, with no modifications needed? 2. How much does it cost? And did you buy it used or new? I ask to compare it to a Wilbers or Ohlins set up to our exact specs. 3. Do you think the R1 shock has more (soft) compression adjustability than ours? Otherwise it might not be the shock for me, and several others. 4. Do you know which brand is our shock, and the R1's? My front says KYB, but the rear says nothing, and don't think it's KYB, but could be wrong. 5. Does it have the remote reservoir integrated, like ours, or is it separate? And does it have manual preload? That's one of the reasons I'd like a Wilbers or Ohlins, for their full adjustability. Very easy to set rider sag, and to compensate for extra weight (passenger, etc). But not looking forward to dismantle half my new bike yet. He he. Thank you too for that great contribution. Oh, one last question. Isn't more relevant rider weight fully geared? I wear short boots, and my gear weighs a not insignificant 13 lbs, plus another 9 for my tail bag (sitting further behind, so in theory should be multiplied by 1.5, which is what the Beemer Shop calculates for pillion weight when setting up Wilbers shocks). That brings my weight from 162 to 193. Wonder what's the weight range on our shock based on that premise. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 18:06:13 GMT -7
No problem. I do believe that we’re in this to help each other and others reading. That's exactly the spirit. And let the forum members decide for themselves if they need or want professional help or not. We don't have to mention that crap every time we write something man. I don't believe nobody here stupid enough to believe all he reads on the internet . And if they are, well, it's their problem. This is a public forum, where you can post whatever advice you want. So you have to learn who you can trust. And the ignorant bullies that want the attention their mommies never gave them, that's what the ignore feature is for . |
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dkim213
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Post by dkim213 on Sept 7, 2019 18:13:24 GMT -7
For the rear shock, I purchased a 15+ R1 shock (length adjustable) and had GP Suspension give me more rebound and respring it for my 230lb without gear weight. I haven’t been able to ride it since my bike is at the dealer for an oil pan leak. Oh man, sorry to hear about the leak. First time I hear of an oil leak. Several coolant ones, but no oil leaks so far. Where was it? And what year and mileage? Hope it's all done without adding any other issues, brother. Hey, thanks a million for that contribution. It's a GREAT idea. But have a few questions hope you don't mind asking: 1. Is it a complete bolt-on job, with no modifications needed? 2. How much does it cost? And did you buy it used or new? I ask to compare it to a Wilbers or Ohlins set up to our exact specs. 3. Do you think the R1 shock has more (soft) compression adjustability than ours? Otherwise it might not be the shock for me, and several others. 4. Do you know which brand is our shock, and the R1's? My front says KYB, but the rear says nothing, and don't think it's KYB, but could be wrong. 5. Does it have the remote reservoir integrated, like ours, or is it separate? And does it have manual preload? That's one of the reasons I'd like a Wilbers or Ohlins, for their full adjustability. Very easy to set rider sag, and to compensate for extra weight (passenger, etc). But not looking forward to dismantle half my new bike yet. He he. Thank you too for that great contribution. Oh, one last question. Isn't more relevant rider weight fully geared? I wear short boots, and my gear weighs a not insignificant 13 lbs, plus another 9 for my tail bag (sitting further behind, so in theory should be multiplied by 1.5, which is what the Beemer Shop calculates for pillion weight when setting up Wilbers shocks). That brings my weight from 162 to 193. Wonder what's the weight range on our shock based on that premise. Oil leak, 2019, 3500 miles. Oil pan. I simple greened the bottom and it looked like the oil pan gasket. Brought it to the dealer and they said they couldn’t find the leak. I asked them if it was vertical or on the side stand. They said vertical. They put it on the side stand and were able to find the leak. Bike is still at the dealer waiting the gasket. Hope they don’t scratch up my exhaust.  1. Is it a complete bolt-on job, with no modifications needed? Yes, complete bolt on, our suspension components are mostly the same minus the aluminum vs steel links and the shock itself. 2. How much does it cost? And did you buy it used or new? I ask to compare it to a Wilbers or Ohlins set up to our exact specs. I bought a used 18 R1 shock for $55 shipped. Revalve and respring was around $250 or $300. They had to make some delrin seat springs to run 2.25” eibach springs. 3. Do you think the R1 shock has more (soft) compression adjustability than ours? Otherwise it might not be the shock for me, and several others. Sorry, I do not know this. I just read (imagined?) that the shock was similarly valved. 4. Do you know which brand is our shock, and the R1's? My front says KYB, but the rear says nothing, and don't think it's KYB, but could be wrong. I have no clue. 5. Does it have the remote reservoir integrated, like ours, or is it separate? And does it have manual preload? That's one of the reasons I'd like a Wilbers or Ohlins, for their full adjustability. Very easy to set rider sag, and to compensate for extra weight (passenger, etc). But not looking forward to dismantle half my new bike yet. He he. It looks nearly identify minus the length adjustment. I’m not very well versed in Öhlins or wilbers. I’ve only ran Harley shocks and ketch razor r on my previous bike. I’ve attached pictures of the revalved R1 shock.    |
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aavmann
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Post by aavmann on Sept 7, 2019 18:27:50 GMT -7
Hey Aavmann, you seem like a reasonable person, so I'm a bit surprised you posted that. These forums are to share your advice and experience, and let others take what they want, and ignore the rest. With the logic you posted, why do you come here at all? Just go to a professional shop for whatever you need, no? But you're here, so you're contradicting yourself . I'm sure you want to know as much as possible about any issue before deciding if you really need a 'professional'. And if you do, to ask the right questions, etc. Well, that's exactly what I'm doing here brother . Absolutely nothing wrong sharing your advice on ANY issue, and the better detailed, the more it could help. And let other fellow forum members take it or leave it. And if you don't feel like helping, why not just move on to the next thread? Also, don't ass-u-me; doesn't make you look smart. And hope you don't take it the wrong way, and end up like the fool above, trying to ruin all my threads . First, I've spent well over 10 grand in 'rider training' over the years, with my last 2-day Superbike School camp at Laguna Seca just last April, which cost me half the bike with all expenses. I'm a lot better rider than the average Joe, so that assumption about me was wrong. And as far as suspension setup, I never said or implied 'I had it'. I'm basically the target weight of factory suspension tuning, so never needed a 'professional' before. plus there're none where I live. And most importantly, don't think I need one yet. I'm no expert, but know enough to know that no amount of sag, preload, or rebound can eliminate excessive compression damping, which is my main problem now. If I end up buying a shock (like a Wilbers from The Beemer Shop), it should come already 'dialed in' based on my specs, so wouldn't need a pro. Maybe if you had asked the experts here could have avoided paying a shop just to tell you a new shock is needed . That's the spirit of these forums. You two might have succeeded in ruining my thread, but that's okay. I believe in Karma. Ha ha. Still wish you a happy weekend . Hella again... wasn’t meant to come off negative at all. I just realize more and more the risk in “tinkering” with suspension based on simple feel and feedback or suggestions for that matter. Bottom out the forks under hard braking before a corner or set the rear too soft while accelerating hard out of a corner and those are recipes for disaster. It happens quickly, and sometimes with little warning.. My fear is that there are so many factors regarding the settings. Oil age, temperature, riding style, weight.etc etc etc that simply tuning to a recommendation from a post is too scary. I’m trying to help this individual realize the dangers in doing so and to let a suspension shop with experience help out instead. I had to trailer my bike over 5 hours to get to a reputable one near me. Maybe not everyone has that luxury. I also have a paid subscription to Dave Moss and have watched all his videos. Still... glad I went somewhere else instead of clicking ... then feeling ... then clicking ... then feeling . Btw... I needed a rear spring only, not a rear shock that you had mentioned. Having the shop do the easy sag measurements also allowed time to do the changes immediately, I apologize once again if it came across negative... I’m just a little sensitive to this all.... Didn’t share this but had a crash on the track on my 07 Gsxr600 9 weeks ago.... still off work... fractured neck and a grade 4 concussion. Suspension related? Not necessarily but I do know that improper suspension setup greatly raises the risks of a crash. I don’t want forum members “experimenting” when they don’t have to.... too much at risk. I guess there’s the karma you wished upon me... enjoy...😎 |
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aavmann
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Post by aavmann on Sept 7, 2019 18:42:27 GMT -7
Ok. Gotta lighten things up here a bit.... what I can say.... to help others, is that at 255lbs with full gear on, I needed a new rear spring. Ohlins is what he had in stock and I could get a part number if needed but all calculations were done and installed and double checked. As I’m still recovering from my track crash, I could only do a short little ride just to feel the stiffer rear end. I feels much more planted. Check sag yourself or goto a professional at a minimum. Numbers don’t lie and not doing so may have your suspension bottoming out or very close to bottoming.... not good. shop I used is called Accelerated technologies....if your in Ontario Canada. Check out the site and the owners bio (John). Guy knows his stuff. anyway...Here are a few pics. The stock spring was much smaller in coil size (from what I needed at least) Cheers     |
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vk
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Post by vk on Sept 7, 2019 19:54:27 GMT -7
Gotta agree, pay the 60 bucks. Made a hugh difference for me. I'm 240 with gear so this fall gonna get a rear shock with spring. I was hesitant at first but I can it was the best thing I did as far as changes etc. I read some books etc but no real substitute for having an experienced hand check it out. Hp and torque is a blast but having a bike that is on rails is just as much fun haha!!!
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vstate60
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Post by vstate60 on Sept 7, 2019 21:53:10 GMT -7
Gotta agree, pay the 60 bucks. Made a hugh difference for me. I'm 240 with gear so this fall gonna get a rear shock with spring. I was hesitant at first but I can it was the best thing I did as far as changes etc. I read some books etc but no real substitute for having an experienced hand check it out. Hp and torque is a blast but having a bike that is on rails is just as much fun haha!!! Dude...stop being a bully! Tell him to buy an Ohlins triple-clicker or push on!!! <Sarcasm> |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2019 21:56:09 GMT -7
Hey Aavmann, sorry about your crash brother. Hope you recover quickly. And thank you for sharing your experience. Most of us here are mature and experienced enough to know what we're doing, so I wouldn't worry about anybody crashing because they followed your (or anybody's) advice. At least in my case, I have enough track experience to know how my bike should feel. Might not know how to set up a suspension perfectly, but I can definitely tell if something's wrong. Now that I need to tinker with it, the mechanical engineer in me wants to learn how to 'read' what's out of whack, and how to fix it myself . And will eventually get it done; it's not rocket science. He he. Anyway, my main question about our bike's suspension is if the stock shock has too much compression damping even when at the minimum for the streets, AND for my weight, since the heavier the rider, the less it becomes a problem. That's why heavy riders would never agree with my findings . Will determine if I can compensate for that with a little less tire pressure (from 33/36, to maybe 32/35), and a hair less preload. And the beauty of this is I can bring it back to where it was in a matter of minutes, so nothing to lose. Oh, and will have a bike that is set up absolutely perfect for my weight and riding style, so will be doing some 'reverse engineering', measuring everything on that bike, then try to set up my bike to feel just like it, and see what exactly I end up with, especially with rider sag % front and back, which is hard to get right on a bike like ours, since it's semi-upright, and the majority of the rider's weight on the rear, not 50/50, like on a hypersport. So how do you set it? The other bike will help me a lot understand that relationship, since it's also a naked. All I know is rider sag is typically 30% of suspension travel, but that also depends on riding style. Riding both bikes back to back will help us both understand what we're doing, and eventually get it right. Should be fun . Thank you again for all the contributions, and will report back after my trip what I ended up doing, and how satisfied I am. I checked prices on Ohlins and Wilbers, and no way I can justify $1,400+ for a shock just for a bit less compression damping. Since I'll never push the envelope like I did a few days ago, and I won't track this bike, I can definitely live with it the way it is now. So even if we fail to improve the suspension, I'd just put it back the way it is now, and call it a day. Now I just need to find out what's the stock suspension travel on our bike (front and rear), to take them with me. Will also pack a few zipties, along with the needed tools. I'll have a chock as well. Thank you again gang. |
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Post by hooli on Sept 11, 2019 6:43:55 GMT -7
I had my stock suspension adjusted by a local expert. It did well for street and track use, but as I become more acclimated to pushing the bike harder I plan on swapping the bits out for a penske shock and GP fork cartridges this winter.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 12:47:02 GMT -7
I had my stock suspension adjusted by a local expert. It did well for street and track use, but as I become more acclimated to pushing the bike harder I plan on swapping the bits out for a penske shock and GP fork cartridges this winter. May I ask what exactly you find lacking on the stock suspension? In which weight range in full gear are you (150-170, 170-190, etc)? What pushed you to those 2 brands? And do those GP cartridges retain the stock adjustments? For sure start a new thread when you get them, with pros and cons, but for now just curious on your motivation to change. Thx. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 17:06:08 GMT -7
A relevant update. I'm getting the bike ready for the weeklong trip to the Hill Country tomorrow. Wanted to recheck the rear fast compression, now with proper lighting and tools, and I'm happy to report the 14mm nut bottoms in and out, so it's perfectly fine, but for some reason, without the 'clicks'. Oh, and the nut also screws in and out, but it has reverse threads, so fully soft is all the way in (all other adjustment bolts have normal threads). I also adjusted all compressions to the max soft stated in the owner's manual, but all 3 actually have more adjustment: Front forks: Compression max soft is listed at 23, but it has 29 clicks (left it at 23). Preload is at 7 (-2), and rebound at 8 (-2). Rear slow compression max soft is listed at 18, but it has 23 clicks (left it at 18). Preload is stock, and rebound at 13 (-2). Rear fast compression max soft is listed at 5.5, but it has 6.5 turns (left it at 5.5). Will play with all settings there (if needed), and see what other changes are best for my riding style on this bike, which is aggressive cornering/lean angle, but at 'the pace', so not too aggressive with the throttle or brakes. That way I enjoy the scenery at a safe pace, and slower riders catch up quickly on the sraights. That's why I can soften things a little more (compared to a track, or super aggressive setup), without risk of bottoming out anything: firm, but not overly so, for more comfort on (often broken) street pavement. I don't want any more dive, so will not soften front preload any more. If anything, would match the rear. We'll see how it goes . One last question on rear preload, in case I need to increase it a little: Factory lists it in millimeters (rather than turns), with only 4 mm up or down of adjustment. But looks like one full turn is about 1mm, correct? Hard to measure the pitch that deep. Just marked the 2 nuts and spring with a black dot, to precisely measure each turn. And also to be able to put it back to stock, if desired. Thanks gang. |
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