rj
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Post by rj on Jun 11, 2019 20:50:26 GMT -7
When I picked up the bike, the rear would bottom out. Also, the bars would get pissed off under heavy acceleration. I put around three turns of preload into the rear as a quick band aid and it's much better. The front is still way to stiff, almost ridiculous like. I'm 6'2" 210 lbs.
I've always taken my bikes to a suspension tuner, but it's a pain to go all of the way out there. I probably will at some point anyway, but wanted to try and set up this thing myself and see how well I can get it.
To start, why would I want 30mm of sag as opposed to 35mm? A video I watched claimed you should set it at 30% of the specified suspension travel for the street.
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theculturalattache
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Post by theculturalattache on Jun 12, 2019 6:32:46 GMT -7
Not everyone agrees but I find these videos very helpful. I subscribe but apparently lots of the videos are free on YouTube. davemosstuning.com/ |
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theculturalattache
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Post by theculturalattache on Jun 12, 2019 6:45:05 GMT -7
30 mm instead of 35 mm will stiffen the suspension, which is what you need at the back as the spring is to soft.
I am a similar weight to you and ended up replacing the shock with a much stiffer spring.
At the front try putting a zip tie round one of your fork legs so you can see how much travel you are using.
I have the preload one turn out and still bottom out when getting a move on so I need stiffer springs in the front.
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theculturalattache
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Post by theculturalattache on Jun 12, 2019 6:52:41 GMT -7
Type into YouTube "BJ mt10 blog episode 6"
and towards the end they give settings front and rear that will help.
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Post by thefinn on Jun 12, 2019 7:50:29 GMT -7
Follow this video step by step, youll get it well into the ballpark.
Easy instructions and basically your entry ticket to diy suspension setups
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Post by thefinn on Jun 12, 2019 7:51:42 GMT -7
Also, youll likely need stiffer springs if anything. Your compression is off if its harsh on bumps, or your preload is far too soft, making you bottom out which gives the harch sensation
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aavmann
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Post by aavmann on Jun 12, 2019 9:19:43 GMT -7
When I picked up the bike, the rear would bottom out. Also, the bars would get pissed off under heavy acceleration. I put around three turns of preload into the rear as a quick band aid and it's much better. The front is still way to stiff, almost ridiculous like. I'm 6'2" 210 lbs. I've always taken my bikes to a suspension tuner, but it's a pain to go all of the way out there. I probably will at some point anyway, but wanted to try and set up this thing myself and see how well I can get it. To start, why would I want 30mm of sag as opposed to 35mm? A video I watched claimed you should set it at 30% of the specified suspension travel for the street. Hey.... have a look at an mod suggested by Dave Moss, specifically for the MT10. Raising the fork tubes up through the triple clamps. This lowers the front end a bit. I did it a while ago and prefer it more so as the front end stays down better under hard acceleration. Corners just fine as well. Food for thought. |
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theculturalattache
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Post by theculturalattache on Jun 12, 2019 9:36:51 GMT -7
And the strings are for a 200 pound rider,not dissimilar to you.
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theculturalattache
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Post by theculturalattache on Jun 12, 2019 9:37:11 GMT -7
And the settings.
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mario
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Post by mario on Jun 17, 2019 8:57:22 GMT -7
Sag...lets start with your question first. Why 30mm over 35mm, or even 40mm?!
Good question. Sag is the measure of how much the suspension has compressed under just the bikes weight (static sag) or under the weight of you + the bike (rider sag). What you are trying to do with sag is set the suspension into a good working range. You want the suspension to sit in such a position that when you brake there is enough travel left for the forks to dive without bottoming out, and you also want them in a position where if you go over a dip, the forks can extended and follow the dip in the road rather than have the front wheel become airborne.
So why do you usually get recommended 30mm for track and 35mm for road? Reason being is that on a track, the surface is much smoother, so you have less dips in the tarmac that the suspension needs to follow, ontop of that you have MUCH higher braking forces on track, so that 5mm less sag gives you 5mm more of suspension travel before the forks bottom out.
Ultimately, sag is all about setting a "working range" for your suspension.
Now, onto some of the comments made here. First of all, preload DOES NOT alter how stiff the suspension is! The only way to make a bike stiffer is to change the springs. Pre-load does exactly what it says, it "pre-loads" the suspension.
So for example, if you have a spring which is 1N/mm, then to compress it 1mm, you need to apply 1N of force. That means with 10mm of preload, the spring is applying 10N of force. So to make it move 1mm, after it has 10mm of preload, you need to apply 11N of force (10N for the preload + 1N for the 1mm movement).
The very instant the bike is on the ground and the suspension compresses under the weight of the bike, that is it, the preload is overcome, adding more preload will then do 1 thing and 1 thing only, it will RAISE the bike, removing preload will LOWER the bike, it is then adjusted and used to set a good working range for your suspension.
Onto static sag vs rider sag. Ultimately, the bike is ridden with you on it, it cannot ride itself, therefore rider sag is FAR more important. Setting static sag on it's own is a waste of time. Static sag can help you determine if the springs you have are correct. If rider sag is bang on, but static sag is really high, then the springs are too stiff, if the static sag is really low when rider sag is bang on, then the springs are too soft.
A reasonable static sag is 10mm on the rear and 10-15mm on the front.
That "BJ blog" video posted above is pointless for precisely this reason, they set static sag, and do not check rider sag. I'm sorry, but until motorbikes can ride themselves, that's just pointless. The settings in that video are excessively stiff also, especially the compression damping on the front.
This bike, out of the factory is under soft on the rear with little preload and stiff on the front with lots of preload. I have got the sag settings perfect on the rear with the stock spring, but on the front I have 0 additional preload dialed in and the rider sag is still a little out, the static sag is WAY out. The stock springs are 9.0N/mm, I will be going down to 8.5N/mm springs soon.
As for damping, the front is very over damped on the compression, even when wound out. When I bounce my track bike gently in the top of the stroke to check the compression damping it is pretty good, on the MT-10, it is way too stiff, realistically the track bike should be stiffer than the road bike seeing as it has less bumps to deal with on track than the MT does on the road.
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Deleted
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Registered: Apr 26, 2024 19:10:01 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 11:17:41 GMT -7
Mario, your reasoning is the most logical I've read. Hey, would you mind sharing your weight, and how you'd change factory settings to make the best out of the stock suspension? I'm 162 lbs in shorts, so don't really need to replace anything. I just dialed down a couple of clicks (equivalents) almost everywhere (leaving rear preload factory), since everything felt good but overly stiff, and it worked great; feels much better. Feels great in the twisties aggressively, which is what I like, but it still feels too stiff when hitting potholes. Might lower the compression in front another couple of clicks, and see if it improves there, without making anything else worse. I like only changing 1 setting at a time, but I'm glad lowering everything a little evenly worked. Thanks in advance for your comments  . |
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theculturalattache
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Post by theculturalattache on Jun 17, 2019 12:08:02 GMT -7
I'll be the first to admit iam at the early stage of trying to figure out suspension,which is why I watch Dave moss and other videos.
Genuine question,does adding preload to a progressive spring not make it stiffer?
Our bikes come with progressive springs I believe.
Cheers.
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mario
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Post by mario on Jun 17, 2019 13:35:24 GMT -7
Mario, your reasoning is the most logical I've read. Hey, would you mind sharing your weight, and how you'd change factory settings to make the best out of the stock suspension? I'm 162 lbs in shorts, so don't really need to replace anything. I just dialed down a couple of clicks (equivalents) almost everywhere (leaving rear preload factory), since everything felt good but overly stiff, and it worked great; feels much better. Feels great in the twisties aggressively, which is what I like, but it still feels too stiff when hitting potholes. Might lower the compression in front another couple of clicks, and see if it improves there, without making anything else worse. I like only changing 1 setting at a time, but I'm glad lowering everything a little evenly worked. Thanks in advance for your comments . To be honest you are not far off my weight, I am 69kg (152lb). You say you do not need to replace anything, but what are your sag settings? For me, the rear static sag was 8mm and rider sag was 30mm, so pretty close, that was after I added 2-3 turns of preload on the rear. I could probably do with removing a turn to get the static sag closer to 10mm and rider sag at about 32mm. That is with the stock spring. On the front however, it's a different kettle of fish. Preload is at 0 turns which gives me 28mm rider sag and 18mm static sag, quite some way off. I need softer springs and I know that. So before you think everything is good because your weight is what you think they designed the bike for, measure it! Always make your own measurements, don't rely on other peoples. Also, take measurements after going for a good 20 minute ride to get the oil warmed up in the suspension to get a truer representation of what the bike will be like on the road. My settings are as follows..... Front ForksRider Sag: 28mm Static Sag: 18mm (stock springs are too stiff for my weight) Compression: 23 clicks out (stock is 17) - This is max soft, and it's still a bit harsh, but I want to sort my springs first before I look at revalving Rebound: 10 clicks out (stock is 6) Tyre Pressure: 34 psi Rear ShockRider Sag: 30mm Static Sag: 8mm High Speed Compression: 3 turns out (stock is 3 turns) Low Speed Compression: 7 clicks out (stock is 12) Rebound: 4 clicks out (stock is 11) Tyre Pressure: 32 psi So as you can see I have firmed up the rear, but softened up the front, and honestly I feel the rear is really quite good, but the front is something I am not happy with. So there is going to be more work on it. Who knows, maybe when I get the front sorted, the rear will not feel as good and I will need to look at it again. Also, just as a side note, from dyno testing the high speed compression damping on the rear does nothing at all (hence it's not touched), and the low speed does work, but the changes are not as dramatic as the rebound damping, not to mention, changes to rebound affect the compression on this shock. So possibly after I get the front sorted, a revalve of the rear will be in order. Just need to find the time to do it all. I'll be the first to admit iam at the early stage of trying to figure out suspension,which is why I watch Dave moss and other videos. Genuine question,does adding preload to a progressive spring not make it stiffer? Our bikes come with progressive springs I believe. Cheers. No, adding preload, cannot and will not, EVER make a spring stiffer. Progressive or linear, the laws of physics do not change. Preload is the force the spring is pushing up with due to being squashed into a metal tube that is physically shorter than the spring itself. To make a spring stiffer you need a different spring all together, usually one that uses thicker wire to make it stiffer. As per my last post, once the weight of the bike is on the suspension and the suspension compresses just 1mm, that is it, the preload has been overcome, adding more preload will serve to just raise the bike higher, and removing preload will lower the bike. That is it. Also, the springs on the MT-10 are not progressive, a lot of people say the rear spring is progressive due to the wheel rate being progressive on the rear, but that is due to linkage design and is a whole different ball game, so lets not go there just now. |
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