lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 15, 2018 20:05:47 GMT -7
To preface, I've rode in the deep concrete jungles of DFW 365 days a year for over 8 years now, bike only. I've had 10 bikes, mostly sporty types, always done my own service and mods, tons of first hand learning and hard lessons. Been a bike salesman, a tech, and I'm a welder / stainless fabricator by trade and work as a maintenance mechanic in food production facilities. My point? Please consider this when considering the token questions and statements on what my motivations are, telling me to turn back, I sincerely don't care. Spare me.
So I just sold my gen2 fz1, and it had satan666's ver3 shock adapter, oem 07-08 r1 shock, 07-08 r1 dogbone, and 5w oil in oem forks. And a 190/55 tire. All settings / preload for spirited road riding, all this gave it a MUCH higher rear and consequently a sharper steering angle, well into 24 degrees.
But the result was amazing.
It felt alien at first and took a few days to acclimate but it was addictive. Made steering literally weightless at all speeds, as soon as you begin to change lanes it's like the bike starts to side strafe, very foreign in the feels but it worked. Very very well. And, of course, high speed stability was effected but not much. The chunky build and relatively decent wheelbase ( and good veriety/ condition tires ) does much to keep it calm even going over changing pavement elevations at high speed. And I had no damper!
Surprisingly it all just worked.
This experience may be old familiar stuff to a seasoned few of you but this was my first taste of such frame geometries.
So, I want to see what tinkering I can do to this latest gen fazer to emulate this setup. I want to experiment with oem R1 parts first, such as the dogbones/ other linkage and maybe the shock. I know it's not really an " upgrade " in shock performance I'm soley after frame / steering geometries.
Sliding the forks up higher may be an option but I want to avoid that.
In the end it's just experimentation. If someone else has done this, chime in or direct me. If not I'll just post what I find.
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 15, 2018 21:34:32 GMT -7
So according to part numbers the relay arms are the same.
The link arms are different part numbers ( oddly the fz10's are backordered and simply not available ) and do look different.
The fz10's looking like stamped steel whilst the R1's are billet steel or aluminum, can't tell from the ebay pictures. No idea on differences in dimensions, the part numbers suggest they're the same. Here's to finding out.
Anyone know the pitch mount to mount on the R1 oem shock? Both min and max ride-height adjustment.
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ghostrider1127
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Post by ghostrider1127 on Dec 16, 2018 5:57:04 GMT -7
Big difference between rear suspension setup between Mt/Fz10 and R1/R1s
R1 dogbones are ally .
R1 shock got another setup (softer spring) and yes adj. lenght.
Otherwise , same linkage , same swingarm ....
if i remmember correctly R1 shock was 2 mm short than Mt unit , possible to adj more or less 6 mm so i would say . 315 mm (+/-2) +/-6
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theculturalattache
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Post by theculturalattache on Dec 16, 2018 10:01:33 GMT -7
I dropped the yokes 20 mm.
Turns much better now.
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 16, 2018 14:26:21 GMT -7
Ghostrider, I thought the fz swinger was shorter? They are different part numbers and visually different too. The R1 swinger has the r1 logo cast into it, the fz has the 2 lumps.
Stoltec reports the same spring on the shocks. Everything the same, just ride height adjustment on the r1. You would THINK the fz has a stiffer spring, but it doesn't.
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ghostrider1127
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Post by ghostrider1127 on Dec 16, 2018 17:46:09 GMT -7
You would think the swingarm it´s longer on the R1
Possible ask "fz10minesrdripper" as he just bought one and discovered they are the same , unluckily we spoke about only after he bought it , and than was too late...
Could be rear springs are different for US models.
In europe the mt10 shock springs are stiffer than R1 unit .
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fz10minesrdripper
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Post by fz10minesrdripper on Dec 16, 2018 21:44:46 GMT -7
You would think the swingarm it´s longer on the R1 Possible ask "fz10minesrdripper" as he just bought one and discovered they are the same , unluckily we spoke about only after he bought it , and than was too late... Could be rear springs are different for US models. In europe the mt10 shock springs are stiffer than R1 unit . Yes...same length. There was an article stating the R1m swingarm was 5mm longer...the editor was wrong. I should make him buy my swingarm...  |
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 17, 2018 10:52:24 GMT -7
Dang. That's messed up. Someone should do some rock solid conclusive measurements and post the evidence to denounce that horribly misleading editir flub up once and for all.
As for the spring, maybe after the fz ( 17' ) they updated the spring weight but I'm just going off of stoltec's reports.
As for the double dog bones I think I'll first fab up some incrementally shorter sets. An adjustable set would be ideal, spacers / longer bolts would likely be required as well as a very strict procedure of adjusting them.
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ghostrider1127
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Post by ghostrider1127 on Dec 17, 2018 12:01:09 GMT -7
I did quite a nice write up on the old UK forum , about all and more, suddently the Admin was not interested anymore and the forum went BOOM. (like the new Uk forum may will end up soon BTW) .
May I will have a talk with Cruzin here ......
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 18, 2018 22:27:10 GMT -7
Okay, so I handmade the first round at my job, I'll post exact dimensions tomorrow. I achieved the goal I set with changing the link, but as expected it didn't give the results I'm after. I'll need to do some homework on stock steering angles fz1 gen2 vs fz10. Only thing left at this point is lowering the forks but the seat angle is already at the most extreme whilst still being functional. It's much more favorable, the links I made are stainless 304/308 or some typical shit and 5mm thick, down from 6.2mm oem links. Considering the r1's are possibly aluminum this shouldn't matter. Confident enough I'm putting my life on it ^_^ Improved handling but not satisfied yet. Weight distribution and steering stem angle is all there is right? Rake and trail. Obviously that's it. Homework!  All strung up in my handy little hanger. Theres already a bud's bike as the main occupant.  This is the position you'll need in order the pull out the forward bolt, to clear the kickstand's exhaust mount. The bolt securing the knuckle to the frame doesn't have to come out, I took it out realizing this later.  These are the links, nothing special but the bolt is precisely 12mm, I miked the holes around 12.15mm-12.25mm, oem links are 12.29mm. Used a 15/32" bit. In a drill press and wiggled it around with a hand drill afterwards to incremently widen it out. Excessive amount of polish and sanding / other finish work like all my creations.  A reference to the oem link. Angle sucks but you get the point.  swimming poems by famous poetsAnd that's her all buttoned up. No collisions or binding.  I'll have to find a way to extend the kickstand. It's not horrible but far from ideal. |
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ghostrider1127
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Post by ghostrider1127 on Dec 19, 2018 1:25:51 GMT -7
It´s look like really different now .
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 19, 2018 5:43:59 GMT -7
Totally can't tell if that's sarcasm.
In any case, one inch at a time. Am I right fellas? Eh heh heh.
This was my first ever write up like this too, so it was an exercise in that as well.
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ghostrider1127
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Post by ghostrider1127 on Dec 19, 2018 6:03:37 GMT -7
No sarcasm was intended...
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 19, 2018 6:39:21 GMT -7
Ah well thank you then kind sir.
Dimensions coming soon.
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 19, 2018 14:10:34 GMT -7
Okay so, fz1 gen 2 has 25 degree rake, 109mm trail with stock wheelbase of 57.5 inches and the fz10 has 24 degree rake, 4 inch trail and 55.1 inch wheelbase.
After boiling it down in my head does the extra rake and trail equate to lighter handling in the fz1's case? Is the wheelbase playing a part? You can't tell me the fz1 had better mass centralization and lower than the fz10.
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fz10minesrdripper
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Post by fz10minesrdripper on Dec 20, 2018 15:21:56 GMT -7
I dropped the yokes 20 mm. Turns much better now. That's pretty excessive...I've fiddled around with geometry on my bikes and I usually raise the ride height via shock or by the dog bones...maybe 1/4" because I also run 60 series race tires on the rear...so the backend is up quite a bit. Then I sometimes drop triples 3-6mm. I don't think I'd ever drop the front 20mm...unless I dropped the back 15-20mm because I'm 4' 10" tall...  . Take it to the track and talk with a professional suspension tuner. If your just riding canyons...the FZ/MT10 turns plenty quick....I wouldn't steer to far from what manufacturer designed into the bike. If anything it needs the wheelbase lengthened to slow the steering and curb wheelies. Anyway...it's just my opinion. It's never a bad thing to try stuff...just try another well set-up FZ/MT10 to compare yours with. Later |
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 21, 2018 9:19:28 GMT -7
Thanks for the input. I'm actually on the fence on how I like the fabb'd dog bones. Seat angle is kinda impaired and it's still very unfamiliar in the rear end feel, not very intuitive andcwould need some hard aggressive thrashing to familiarize myself with it.
I may go back to oem, or a set that's between the 2. Not at all a loss though, its all about the learning experience.
Aaaand I still need to post dimensions.
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lastwish
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Post by lastwish on Dec 22, 2018 20:45:09 GMT -7
 As promised, ze deminsiones. |
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ghostrider1127
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Post by ghostrider1127 on Dec 23, 2018 4:38:43 GMT -7
those are oem ?
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exuptoy
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Post by exuptoy on Dec 23, 2018 17:21:33 GMT -7
In reference to the OP's initial findings, did you adjust the standard suspension settings to suit your riding style prior to playing with the geometry. The general consensus with the MT/FZ is that the rear preload needs setting correctly as it is generally set too low from the factory. People have raised the back end so there is roughly 15mm of static sag before setting the rebound and compression to suit, which supposedly makes a big difference. Of course it will always be a compromise with low budget standard suspension, although coming from the R1 it is not as bad as some!
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. Take it to the track and talk with a professional suspension tuner. If your just riding canyons...the FZ/MT10 turns plenty quick....I wouldn't steer to far from what manufacturer designed into the bike. If anything it needs the wheelbase lengthened to slow the steering and curb wheelies. Anyway...it's just my opinion. It's never a bad thing to try stuff...just try another well set-up FZ/MT10 to compare yours with.