varoujan
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Post by varoujan on Jan 29, 2018 8:38:17 GMT -7
If I'm only changing the exhaust muffler, do I still need to block the ais system?
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corrado9a
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Post by corrado9a on Jan 29, 2018 8:45:56 GMT -7
Quick reply: No
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superspirit
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Post by superspirit on Jan 29, 2018 15:52:31 GMT -7
You dont have to, but you may get a lot of decel popping.
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osiris10012
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Post by osiris10012 on Jan 29, 2018 17:32:13 GMT -7
If you are just doing a slip on I wouldn't bother. If your doing a cat delete I would definitely recommend it.
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corrado9a
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Post by corrado9a on Jan 30, 2018 7:22:03 GMT -7
For a muffler change, there is absolutely no need to install block off plates. No banging and popping of any sort. None. Just a slightly different sound tone and volume.
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superspirit
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Post by superspirit on Jan 30, 2018 16:07:33 GMT -7
You dont have to, but you may get a lot of decel popping. Sorry I didnt read it well enough. Muffler only no plates needed, If you decat you will have decel popping without the plates.
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Feb 1, 2018 16:38:32 GMT -7
Since you're only replacing the muffler, I'm assuming you don't have plans to get the bike dyno tuned. But, if you decide to, you would need to install the block-off plates, or the air/fuel ratio readings will not be accurate due to the extra air being injected into the exhaust.
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corrado9a
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Post by corrado9a on Feb 2, 2018 8:34:23 GMT -7
i have been thinking about why is that, and why it doesnt affect the bike's ecu. I suuddely realized that the tuning is done via wide band at the exhaust tip. If the tuning is done via O2 sensor location then it shouldt be a problem (it is a question more than a statement)
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dewaynehasty
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Post by dewaynehasty on Feb 2, 2018 14:10:54 GMT -7
i have been thinking about why is that, and why it doesnt affect the bike's ecu. I suuddely realized that the tuning is done via wide band at the exhaust tip. If the tuning is done via O2 sensor location then it shouldt be a problem (it is a question more than a statement) I was wondering the same thing. If you have your ECU flashed which turns off the O2 sensor then why do you have to install block off plates. Can't you just leave all that crap in place?
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Feb 2, 2018 14:40:43 GMT -7
i have been thinking about why is that, and why it doesnt affect the bike's ecu. I suuddely realized that the tuning is done via wide band at the exhaust tip. If the tuning is done via O2 sensor location then it shouldt be a problem (it is a question more than a statement) I was wondering the same thing. If you have your ECU flashed which turns off the O2 sensor then why do you have to install block off plates. Can't you just leave all that crap in place? You may be confusing dyno tuning with flashing the ecu. When dyno tuning, the wide-band O2 sensor (not the factory O2 sensor installed on your bike) measures the air/fuel ratio in the exhaust, since the ais system injects air upstream in the exhaust, it will make getting accurate air/fuel ratio readings impossible. Injecting more air in the exhaust before the O2 sensor will make the sensor read more lean than what the bike is actually running. Now if you get your ecu flashed via mail order, there is no dyno tuning involved with your specific bike. In this case, you wouldn't need to install the block-off plates unless you remove the cat and want to reduce the popping on decel. Also keep in mind that the "closed loop" mode on the bike where it actually takes readings from the stock O2 sensor and makes adjustments is only a small area of the throttle/rpm range. I'm not sure exactly what triggers the ais system to inject air into the exhaust, but it may not do that while in closed loop mode, which would allow the stock O2 sensor to get accurate readings during closed loop operation.
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corrado9a
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Post by corrado9a on Feb 6, 2018 9:41:30 GMT -7
Now this conversation is getting interesting. FUN !!! I starting my reply based on the assumption that air injection system takes place after the 02 sensors. I could not understand such system otherwise. But at the same time i admit i havent even gone down to the agarage to check it on the bike... When dyno tuning, the wide-band O2 sensor (not the factory O2 sensor installed on your bike) measures the air/fuel ratio in the exhaust, since the ais system injects air upstream in the exhaust, it will make getting accurate air/fuel ratio readings impossible. Injecting more air in the exhaust before the O2 sensor will make the sensor read more lean than what the bike is actually running. Now if you get your ecu flashed via mail order, there is no dyno tuning involved with your specific bike. In this case, you wouldn't need to install the block-off plates unless you remove the cat and want to reduce the popping on decel. Also keep in mind that the "closed loop" mode on the bike where it actually takes readings from the stock O2 sensor and makes adjustments is only a small area of the throttle/rpm range. I'm not sure exactly what triggers the ais system to inject air into the exhaust, but it may not do that while in closed loop mode, which would allow the stock O2 sensor to get accurate readings during closed loop operation. Why not make dyno tuning via O2 wideband replacing one of the two narrowband O2 sensors. That would fix this not really existing "issue" Close Loop mode should be enabled for anything other than WOT (Wide open throttle). For me this should be 90% of the throttle/rpm range, and the mode in which engines are tested for exhaust air quality and is where AIS should work. So with Euro 4 compliant engines the word is that they are mapped to run a little lean to pass emissions tests. Now i am wondering if that is actually true or is the AIS system at work. I know this is just ranting that gets nowhere but is fun nonetheless.
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Feb 6, 2018 11:10:17 GMT -7
I agree, it would be great to have a truly closed-loop system with a wide-band O2 sensor, then when the ecu is flashed, you could simply alter the target afr values to your desire. This is why I use a powercommander w/autotune and display to take care of the fueling. I had the ecu flashed by 2WDW so that takes care of disabling the necessary systems as well as their performance/de-restriction tweaks. But I prefer to create a fuel map specific to my bike.
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mrcdharwood
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Post by mrcdharwood on Feb 6, 2018 11:48:40 GMT -7
Doesnt the PCV have restricted map access? As such it can't access or change the fuelling in the closed loop part of the map?
That's one reason I understood to be true and why I went for a ECU flash.
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Feb 6, 2018 12:05:35 GMT -7
Yes, but once the ecu is flashed and the O2 sensors are disabled, PCV has full access to entire fuel map. So it sounds like the PCV was limited by the ecu, not that the PCV is not able to tune that range.
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mrcdharwood
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Post by mrcdharwood on Feb 7, 2018 12:55:34 GMT -7
Ok I get that but help out a simple man here. If you've had a ECU flash and had it remapped why would you still need a PCV?
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Feb 7, 2018 13:27:51 GMT -7
The fuel map created by 2WDW, or any mail order tune for that matter, was not created specifically with your bike. It was created with the same model bike, but even bikes of the same model with the same mods may require different fueling.
When I got the ECU back, the bike ran great, but I could feel some inconsistency in the just off idle area. While I would turn the throttle in the 0%-2% area, I could feel the bike "fall on it's face" then pick back up with just very small turn of the throttle. So rather than sending the ECU back and forth to get it worked out (no doubt that they could have gotten it perfect for me), but I'm a data junkie, so I wanted to do it myself. When I installed the PCV w/autotune and the display, I was able to verify what I was feeling by watching the display. I could see when the bike felt "normal" the afr was around 13.5-14, then when I was feeling it "fall on it's face", I could see the afr was up in the 15's close to 16, then when it picked back up, it was back down in the 13.5-14 range. So all of those afr changes were going on with a very small, but constant throttle movement from closed to 2%. This allowed me to adjust the fuel map and smooth out that section, it now has a very smooth throttle response in that area.
Truth be told, someone else may not notice that feeling, or may not care. But it annoyed me enough to want to know why it felt like that.
At WOT, the autotune isn't really making any changes to the 2WDW values, so in my case, it just helped me figure out why I was feeling what I was feeling in the just off-idle throttle area.
On a side note, I used Woolich Racing's values to populate the target afr table for the PCV w/autotune, after all, an autotuned map is only as good as the target afr table use use to generate the fuel map.
I've also got a Suzuki B-King, this is the bike I learned about ECU flashing with and have been working with it for the past several years. I have the ECU flashed with Woolich Racing Tuned and also use a PCV w/autotune.
I would say the initial 2WDW tune got me 99% of the way there, and an add-on fuel controller is not necessary. The PCV w/autotune just helped me get it perfect (for me). And I like being able to see the afr at any given time, so I know what's going on.
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dewaynehasty
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Post by dewaynehasty on Feb 7, 2018 14:59:19 GMT -7
While I would turn the throttle in the 0%-2% area, I could feel the bike "fall on it's face" then pick back up with just very small turn of the throttle.
I noticed this too after getting the flash. Not a big deal but annoying. Maybe 2WDyno should hire you!
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Feb 7, 2018 16:29:11 GMT -7
While I would turn the throttle in the 0%-2% area, I could feel the bike "fall on it's face" then pick back up with just very small turn of the throttle.
I noticed this too after getting the flash. Not a big deal but annoying. Maybe 2WDyno should hire you!
Na, I'm sure the flash would have been perfect, had they had my bike with them. Their tune is awesome, you just can't expect a tune (fuel map) that was created on one bike to be 100% spot on for another bike, even though they may be the same model and have the same mods. Even though what I have done smoothed mine out, it may not work as well for you, or any other FZ-10 with the same mods.
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Feb 2, 2019 17:24:26 GMT -7
Update! I sent my ECU back to 2WDW because they have made changes to the flash since I had mine done. They said the changes were specifically to correct the off-idle inconsistency. So I had them update my flash.
We are having a warm couple of days in southern Indiana, so today I took the bike out for the first time since getting the ECU re-flashed with the updated tune. When I installed the ECU back in the bike, I set the PCV fuel map to all zeros, so the only thing controlling the fueling is the ECU.
The off-idle throttle response is now perfect, and the small throttle opening area seems much more smooth. I will be removing the PCV this spring!
If any of you have a previous flash and are experiencing the off-idle issue, I would highly recommend sending your ECU back to have it re-flashed with the updated tune.
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Post by clayton on Feb 2, 2019 19:39:45 GMT -7
Update! I sent my ECU back to 2WDW because they have made changes to the flash since I had mine done. They said the changes were specifically to correct the off-idle inconsistency. So I had them update my flash. We are having a warm couple of days in southern Indiana, so today I took the bike out for the first time since getting the ECU re-flashed with the updated tune. When I installed the ECU back in the bike, I set the PCV fuel map to all zeros, so the only thing controlling the fueling is the ECU. The off-idle throttle response is now perfect, and the small throttle opening area seems much more smooth. I will be removing the PCV this spring! If any of you have a previous flash and are experiencing the off-idle issue, I would highly recommend sending your ECU back to have it re-flashed with the updated tune. So when did they update the flash? I had mine flashed in June 2018 along with getting the ftecu active tune from 2wdw.
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