roninser
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Post by roninser on Aug 12, 2017 17:06:19 GMT -7
OK, this is a little in depth but I am very curious about this. I worked in the motorcycle industry for a long while, wrenched on bikes including my own ever since(this was in the early 90's to present). This is my question: On modern F.I. bikes(use our beloved FZ as the example), with the closed loop system, by modifying the exhaust to a more free flowing system(cat eliminator) does that truly cause a lean running condition? My thinking is that in theory it should be relatively self correcting. At least to the point that a extreme lean condition that may cause detonation, piston hot spots, or extreme valve temps wont happen as they MAY on a carburated engine. Any tuners able to factually enlighten me? Thanks in advance!
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Post by RedAndBlack on Aug 13, 2017 0:59:36 GMT -7
I've always been told by people that I consider smarter than me, that modern vehicle ECUs will adapt to the changed condition on the bike. How much, if at all, I'm not sure.
But with that in consideration, these bikes are designed and tuned to the emissions on the bike. So when you remove the servo valve in the exhaust can, and the cat pipe to make it more free flowing and altering the backpresussure and what not, you're removing variables that the ECU is trying to account for.
I mean I don't think any of us are going for Max racing performance on the FZ10, you would probably get an R1 instead if that was your goal. But considering how much time race teams spend on perfecting exhaust and how much R & D goes into the engineering of the exhaust system, it's obviously a very important variable. Like if you check out Stoltecs thread where he compares the R1 vs the FZ10 headers (which to the naked eye look the same), you can see where the extra time was spent on the R1 to add that little bit more performance. So I would expect that any changes, even minor, have a pretty measurable effect on how the insides of our bikes work.
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roninser
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Post by roninser on Aug 13, 2017 12:06:02 GMT -7
I've always been told by people that I consider smarter than me, that modern vehicle ECUs will adapt to the changed condition on the bike. How much, if at all, I'm not sure. But with that in consideration, these bikes are designed and tuned to the emissions on the bike. So when you remove the servo valve in the exhaust can, and the cat pipe to make it more free flowing and altering the backpresussure and what not, you're removing variables that the ECU is trying to account for. I mean I don't think any of us are going for Max racing performance on the FZ10, you would probably get an R1 instead if that was your goal. But considering how much time race teams spend on perfecting exhaust and how much R & D goes into the engineering of the exhaust system, it's obviously a very important variable. Like if you check out Stoltecs thread where he compares the R1 vs the FZ10 headers (which to the naked eye look the same), you can see where the extra time was spent on the R1 to add that little bit more performance. So I would expect that any changes, even minor, have a pretty measurable effect on how the insides of our bikes work. I Agree with everything you said Red, good points. I forgot about the stoltec thread, that was pretty cool seeing the R1 headers compared to ours, and yes a good example. I wouldn't say none of us are going for max perfomance though, Im not for example however the fz is for me at least the old man's R1..lol. I daily drive mine as much as I can, through the season at least 80-90% of the time and thats 130 miles minimum a day, I just cant do that much time in traffic and so forth nowadays on a sportbike. Some may be seeking the max and some may just be OCD and only believe in going max at highest level with componentry and work into it. Alas, I'm not as concerned. The question of a none flashed and non tuned FZ running into extreme lean conditions when decatting leaves me guessing though. On carburated bikes, there was no self compensation, no electronics obviously. Therefore you could burn a valve, melt a plug, put a hole in a piston from extreme lean conditions under extreme riding conditions. I would think, like you, that our bikes would compensate, but I just don't know for sure. Given my bike is decatted, and I can't be without her for a week or so to send off the ecu for now, so I was worried. Guess I should just call Nels as I will have him do a flash...maybe a rapid bike tuner in the future.idk
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Post by deftone on Dec 1, 2017 9:12:57 GMT -7
Adding to this, is removing the EXUP necessary? I know removal is ideal, but can you leave the motor and cables and just not have them hooked up?
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miglo
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Post by miglo on Dec 1, 2017 21:13:34 GMT -7
Adding to this, is removing the EXUP necessary? I know removal is ideal, but can you leave the motor and cables and just not have them hooked up? Yes, and quite a few do it that way. The cables themselves should be removed though. You don’t want those swinging around anywhere. They’re easy to remove, A few screws to remove the lid to the Exup motor and you can pull the cables right off. Then feed them downward towards the exhaust and out the bottom. Then up to you if you want to leave the motor under the seat or not...
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jjsc6
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Post by jjsc6 on Dec 1, 2017 23:16:24 GMT -7
I don't want to imply that I can factually answer your question, and I think any answer will be very general, meaning that it will vary from one bike to another. I had a Ninja 1000 that I put a full Akro system on. I also put on a power commander at the same time. I had the bike dyno'd before and after at a shop owned by a very long time friend of mine. He had a Dynojet certified technician tune the Power Commander, and they were monitoring the A/F ratio.
After all the tuning, I also had him zero out the Power commander settings so we could see the differences with the fuel delivery essentially stock. What we found was interesting. The bike actually put out slightly more hp with stock fuel delivery. The A/F ratio had some minor spikes, but at all points on the graph the A/F ratio was well within an acceptable/safe range.
I actually played with some maps myself that I got from various sources, including Ivan himself who I bought everything from and is well know and respected. Just for fun I also wound up putting an "Autotune" on it. The truth is that no matter what I did I never felt any seat of the pants differences in the way the bike ran
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Jan 28, 2018 17:02:44 GMT -7
Keep in mind that the "closed loop" area of the bike is only in the idle and smaller throttle opening area. If you go WOT, there is nothing compensating for the change in exhaust flow. You would still have the IAT and IAP sensors that allow the system to adjust to variations on the intake side, but there's nothing on the exhaust side to compensate once your're past the closed loop area.
I'm not saying you will or won't be too lean, just that the closed loop area is only a small section, and once outside of that, there is no means for the bike to compensate for a change in afr.
I got mine flashed by 2WDW and am very happy with the results. Me being a data junkie, I also installed a power commander 5 w/autotune and LCD display, so I could see the afr at any given time. After the flash, I was feeling some inconsistency in the just off-idle throttle, which was confirmed by the display. I was able to see the afr jump from say 13.5 to 14.5-15 when barely even moving the throttle. This allowed me to make adjustments to the fuel map and smooth out the throttle in that area even more.
I've also got a B-King and am using the same philosophy, I flashed the ecu using Woolich Racing Tuned, and am using a PowerCommander 5 w/autotune to create a fuel map. I based the target afr values for the PCV on the target values in the Woolich Racing software, I also based the target afr values off of their values for the FZ-10.
The theory being that an ecu flash that wasn't created for you bike specifically, may not be spot on with regards to the fueling. All the other parameters would carry over from bike to bike, but the fuel map could be different from bike to bike, even if they are the same model.
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xrsman
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Post by xrsman on Jun 25, 2018 10:10:07 GMT -7
OK, this is a little in depth but I am very curious about this. I worked in the motorcycle industry for a long while, wrenched on bikes including my own ever since(this was in the early 90's to present). This is my question: On modern F.I. bikes(use our beloved FZ as the example), with the closed loop system, by modifying the exhaust to a more free flowing system(cat eliminator) does that truly cause a lean running condition? My thinking is that in theory it should be relatively self correcting. At least to the point that a extreme lean condition that may cause detonation, piston hot spots, or extreme valve temps wont happen as they MAY on a carburated engine. Any tuners able to factually enlighten me? Thanks in advance! Did you end up flashing your bike? I just put a hindle exhaust on mine with the quieter stealth muffler, and if I can help it I'd rather not flash my ECU. I'm not getting major backfiring, just small pops and crackles when I'm slowly gearing down. The bike seems to run great, and like you I don't want to be without my bike for 2.5 weeks of the short riding season!
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roninser
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Post by roninser on Jul 1, 2018 8:29:12 GMT -7
XRS- I ended up sending my ecu off in the offseason. Made a very nice difference, there are several reasons aside from the actual tune of the bike to have it flashed-lower fan turn on temp, pair system elimination, less engine braking can be added depending on your desires, EXUP removal....and then the tune, pretty noticeable difference in power. I also did a pair elimination, and tossed in a air filter. Was it all necessary...no I don't think so. Not necessary, but I wonder about the running tune after doing an exhaust and no ECU changes. Me personally, I really worried too much and it was worth it for peace of mind. Now the tune isn't perfect either, although I am sure they could do better, as time goes on the flash type tunes are improved. Truly to get a close to perfect tune its got to be dyno'd. But 2WDW are great people, have great customer service and great reflash policies.
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xrsman
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Post by xrsman on Jul 1, 2018 8:51:24 GMT -7
XRS- I ended up sending my ecu off in the offseason. Made a very nice difference, there are several reasons aside from the actual tune of the bike to have it flashed-lower fan turn on temp, pair system elimination, less engine braking can be added depending on your desires, EXUP removal....and then the tune, pretty noticeable difference in power. I also did a pair elimination, and tossed in a air filter. Was it all necessary...no I don't think so. Not necessary, but I wonder about the running tune after doing an exhaust and no ECU changes. Me personally, I really worried too much and it was worth it for peace of mind. Now the tune isn't perfect either, although I am sure they could do better, as time goes on the flash type tunes are improved. Truly to get a close to perfect tune its got to be dyno'd. But 2WDW are great people, have great customer service and great reflash policies. Thanks for the response! I think I'll do what you did and send mine away in the off season!
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jim998cc
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Post by jim998cc on Jul 3, 2018 9:46:51 GMT -7
Correct me if I am wrong but a FI bike is also nowhere near performance capacity from the factory, to pass emissions, so removing the cat + flash can only do you good, not saying you need max performance but there is ALOT of room for improvement even from just a flash.
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kratosfz10
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Post by kratosfz10 on Jul 3, 2018 10:26:02 GMT -7
Correct me if I am wrong but a FI bike is also nowhere near performance capacity from the factory, to pass emissions, so removing the cat + flash can only do you good, not saying you need max performance but there is ALOT of room for improvement even from just a flash. Right, even if you aren't going for max performance and prefer to keep the stock exhaust, there is much improvement to be made. Although you can/do gain performance from having your ECU flashed, it's also about throttle smoothness, less vibrations, etc.... which improves the ride-ability of the bike.
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fastback89
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Post by fastback89 on Jul 3, 2018 16:50:59 GMT -7
Does the reflash effect mileage?
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xrsman
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Post by xrsman on Jul 3, 2018 16:53:22 GMT -7
Does the reflash effect mileage? 2 wheel dyno told me that after the reflash I should expect 2-3ish mpg less than stock
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Post by papawheelie on Jul 3, 2018 17:45:51 GMT -7
Forgive me for not going along, here. I’m curious, though... Why is it kind of the unspoken rule that we should naturally remove the catalytic converter from our machines as soon as we buy them? Hahaha. I can’t help but feel like we’re saying, "F our environment! I need to go faster! Going faster is all that matters!" The catalytic converter really is kind of a cool thing, the way it works, to cause our billions (literally) of tiny internal combustion engines to spew out less poison into our air.
I’m no tree hugger, and probably a hypocrite in ways that I don’t even know, but, really! This what I think of each time I think of this. If I really cared, I would sell my machines, ride a bicycle everywhere, and try not to breathe too hard, right? 😉
Anywho... I know I’m not adding anything of value, here. I just make myself chuckle, and that’s how I intend to share my meaningless thought. Sorry for the non-relevant post. 🤪
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owle
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Post by owle on Jul 4, 2018 0:37:05 GMT -7
I’m no tree hugger, and probably a hypocrite in ways that I don’t even know, but, really! This what I think of each time I think of this. If I really cared, I would sell my machines, ride a bicycle everywhere, and try not to breathe too hard, right? 😉 Yes you are a hypocrite and so i'm i, and so is my Tree hugging neighbour, who takes great pleasure in lecturing me on the damage to the planet from my hobbies, but takes every opportunity to jump on a jet plane to go sit with gorillas, annoy whales and hug trees around the globe, not to mention all the stuff he buys just because he can. If we added up the resources we both have used so far i think i know who has killed more Polar Bears ----- Him ------ "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"
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roninser
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Post by roninser on Jul 4, 2018 14:47:51 GMT -7
Correct me if I am wrong but a FI bike is also nowhere near performance capacity from the factory, to pass emissions, so removing the cat + flash can only do you good, not saying you need max performance but there is ALOT of room for improvement even from just a flash. Right, even if you aren't going for max performance and prefer to keep the stock exhaust, there is much improvement to be made. Although you can/do gain performance from having your ECU flashed, it's also about throttle smoothness, less vibrations, etc.... which improves the ride-ability of the bike. -I would highly recommend a flash or tune for anyone regardless of any other mods. With or without a cat, just like you said, from the factory there is a lot of room for improvement in rideability and performance. Also being able to change fan activation temps, rev limiter, engine braking....
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paulb63
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Post by paulb63 on Jul 5, 2018 14:03:55 GMT -7
+1 for ETV / throttle map improvements. I got mine flashed on a dyno with Woolich SW. (after a decat) but the most noticeable improvement is throttle response in B mode. I use B mode all the time now. Before it was too twitchy at low rpm but the other modes are too subdued. Originally I was worried about lean running etc..(euro 4 is not enforced where I live.)
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mario
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Post by mario on Jul 10, 2018 5:24:41 GMT -7
To answer the OP's question, yes it can cause lean running conditions. Closed loop fueling only occurs on idle when warm (cold startup maps are used when cold which run the engine a little rich and with ever so slightly elevated RPM until the engine warms up and closed loop fueling starts to come in) and when cruising at a steady speed. The O2 sensors used are narrowband sensors and therefore can only monitor AFR's (Air Fuel Ratios) to a small degree of accuracy. On a standard petrol combustion engine this is the stoichiometric ratio at which fuel burns cleanest, also known as 1-lambda or 14.7:1 AFR (14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel).
When you open the taps though you need richer fuel mixtures, trying to run 14.7:1 on WOT (Wide Open Throttle) will quickly result in an engine fit for the scrap heap. Generally on N/A (Naturally Aspirated) engines you want an AFR of 12.9:1 to 13.1:1 on WOT. While under ANY accelerative load closed loop fueling is not used and the ECU will simply take a reading of how much air is entering (using sensors), how much load is on the engine, what revs the engine is at, etc and then from the map it will determine to dump in "X" volume of fuel.
The Yamaha engineers have told it that "X" volume is needed based on a stock setup. When you alter the breathing of an engine then the mapping is all out from what it was originally designed for. The extra breathability means the engine can pump more air (an engine is just a pump after all) and you have altered the VE (Volumetric Efficiency) of the engine, but the ECU does not know this, so it still dumps in "X" volume of fuel. Well now you have extra air, so the volume of fuel the ECU was told to add by Yamaha engineers is now insufficient and WILL cause lean running conditions.
This is more predominantly seen in forced induction engines (Turbo & Supercharged) where they need even richer AFR's on WOT. As an example for a turbo'd car you would have AFR's of 12.5:1 or there abouts on spool up (extra heat helps spool the turbo, heat is energy and during spool we want lots of energy going to get the turbo spinning), then once on full boost the AFR's need to drop to about 11.8:1
How do I know this? Well I used to map Japanese imports in a previous life. Namely Mitsubishi Evo's, Nissan 200SX (240's in the US), Nissan Skylines, Toyota Pulsars, Toyota JZX, etc, etc. So I speak from experience.
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Post by newtohypernsked1 on Jun 11, 2020 16:27:09 GMT -7
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the afr set a full throttle not at idle and the ecu is set rich for cold start until the engine reaches a designated temp and exhaust temp reaches cat reaction temps
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